There is a reason ford dicontinued the 351m/400 long before the 460. Do you think Ford would discontinue a motor they just spent lots of money designing if they thought it had lots of potential? I dont think so. The fact that they never built a high performance model says it all, they new it was a waste of time when they had many other much better motors like the 460 to start with.

 

>There is a reason ford dicontinued
>the 351m/400 long before the
>460. Do you think Ford
>would discontinue a motor they
>just spent lots of money
>designing if they thought it
>had lots of potential? I
>dont think so. The fact
>that they never built a
>high performance model says it
>all, they new it was
>a waste of time when
>they had many other much
>better motors like the 460
>to start with.


You really need to brush up on your history before you start spouting off. You have absolutely no clue about why the M series was discontinued. Let me see if I can't spell it out for you.

Technology was what made the 400 obsolete not lack of potential. One of the unique features of the 351M/400 motors was the fact that there's no external AIR system to inject fresh air into the exhaust system like there is on the 460. It all goes in through the intake & heads. This means that with the advent of computer controlled engines which utilize EGO sensors there was no good way to effectively move the AIR injection downstream of the EGO sensor which is necessary in order to get an accurate reading to adjust the A/F mixture.

Simple enough for you? Now what I'd love for one of you Einsteins to do is tell me what exactly is so different about the 460 that makes it so much better than the 400? Cube for cube it has no more potential than the 400 so what's the big freakin' deal? Why do you insist on dumping all over the 400?

 

Well first of all....'Einstein'.....One obvious advantage to a 460 is....well.....Availability. I know for a fact that finding a 460 (despite year) is about 500% easier than finding a 400. How about this for an advantage....Aftermarket support. If you want to sit there and tell me that the 400 has as much support as the 460 then I'm gonna sit here and tell you that you're full of it and you're a liar. Another advantage.....Cubes. If you start with more, you'll get more...BOTTOM LINE!!!!!!!!! Ok, so the 400 has a .15 longer stroke.....Hmmmm....SO WHAT!!!!!!! That's barely over an 1/8 of an inch. Are you really that ignorant to think that increasing the stroke on a 460 is that difficult?!!! Come on, get real. Another advantage.....strength. In case you don't know, a 460's main webbing is thicker AND stronger than a 400...Hmmm, can you tell me what that means....Oh, ok......I'll tell you.......added durability.

So you've built some strong 400's and have seen some strong 400's......SO WHAT?!!!!!!!!! There are other's that have built strong 460's and seen strong 460's. Does that make you special....NO, it doesn't. Just because you disagree DOES NOT, and I repeat DOES NOT give you the right to just try and rip on everyone that disagrees with you!!! You disagree, fine. Good for you!!! Yippee!!!! Whatever, I contained my disgust for the way you spoke to everybody as long as I could, now I couldn't take it anymore. Grow up, and just realize that trashing everyone else's opinion and belief's just makes you look like a 5 year old!

TBirdGuy

"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for a ch*vy, Happy with a Ford!!!!"

 

>Grow up, and just realize
>that trashing everyone else's opinion
>and belief's just makes you
>look like a 5 year
>old!
>
>TBirdGuy
>
>"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for
>a ch*vy, Happy with a
>Ford!!!!"


well said, I guess you should follow your own advice

 

Are you telling me ford couldnt keep the over all m series engine the same but redesign it a bit for the new technology? I bet they could have very easily and for a lot less money than designing a whole new motor. If they just redid the M a bit, that would meen the block would be the same which in turn would save ford lots of money. Now why didnt ford do this? I wonder...(disigning and manufacturing a new motor costs a fortune but they did it anyway) So your whole "technology made it obsolete" thing is just another one of your useless defenses of the pethetic M series. Try again.

I know a few mechanics each of whom have dealt with the 400 and each of whom swear at it not by it.

 

<ignorant ranting snipped>

>TBirdGuy
>
>"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for a ch*vy, Happy with a Ford!!!!"

Stick with Mopars and Chevys bright boy, you don't deserve a Ford.

 

>If they just
>redid the M a bit,
>that would meen the block
>would be the same which
>in turn would save ford
>lots of money. Now why
>didnt ford do this? I
>wonder...(disigning and manufacturing a new
>motor costs a fortune but
>they did it anyway) So
>your whole "technology made it
>obsolete" thing is just another
>one of your useless defenses
>of the pethetic M series.
>Try again.

The only "pethetic" thing in this thread is you and your lack of knowledge about Ford engines. Please tell us all which new engine Ford "disigned" to replace the M series. We're waiting...

>I know a few mechanics each
>of whom have dealt with
>the 400 and each of
>whom swear at it not
>by it.

It's a good thing you know someone who knows something about engines, now if you could just find someone who knows how to spell.

 

I didn't get into this thread to start an argument about which motor is better. The 385 series motors are probably the best that Ford ever made, hands down. Given the choice between a 460 and a 400 anyone would be crazy to pick the 400 especially for a truck application if for no other reason than it's bigger! But the 400 is not the piece of garbage that some of the less enlightened members who posted here say it is and some of us who feel up to the challenge of taking something Ford made and making it better instead of swapping it out take issue at the level of ignorance about the M series that has been displayed here. I tried to keep it civil but I get fed up with baseless opinions rather easily and tend to wax rather sarcastic.

Bottom line: I'm through with this thread... astamp, Tbird, 84w44s you boys can scamper off secure in the knowledge that you think you know everything there is to know about Ford engines...after all ignorance is bliss or so they say anyway.

 

He bill, you hook your 400 truck up to my 460 truck and ill drag you around a while. I think that will prove which is better.

 

Bill,

I hope you come back and read this. I never said I knew everything, cause I know I don't. I never made a baseless opinion. Everything I said I said from personal experiences and/or information I have read and learned. I also didn't say that the 400 was a piece of trash. I've never owned one, but I have owned a 351-M and I feel that they are a piece of trash. I refuse to grant any respect to the 351-M, but that doesn't mean that I feel the same for the 400. As I have said numerous times, I haven't owned one. I have seen many (and I REALLY stress MANY) 460's that have lasted and been exceptionally powerful motors. Thank you, this is also my last thread.

TBirdGuy

"Stuck with a m*par, Settle for a ch*vy, Happy with a Ford!!!!"

 

Hi! Let me add this. The 400M was developed out of a need to meet emission standards that the big blocks could not meet. thw small blocks could meet standards but were to under powered. The 400 was severly detuned from the factory and limited by the early smog thermactor's, they went through the heads as mentioned. The cylinder heads also had an almost 90 degree sharp corner for exhaust gasses to vent through,so that it would fit in the engine bays. Since this was a fill in for the big blocks, it shares the 460 bell housing bolt pattern, this way they could still run the bb transmissions,but the majority of the design, came form the popular 351C family. Many parts of the 351C are interchageable. This means that you can put 4v clevland heads on a 400m and get a stroked out clever engine very cheap. Up until the the recent modular designed engines, the 400M had the longest stroke of any ford engine with a full 4" stroke. It was a true 4-4 combo. The only re3ally unique TO THE 400m was it's really wide intake manifold due to the extra wide valley between cyl heads as a result of the taller deck hight to get the 50 more CID.
Comparing it to the 460! The comparison is against 460 4bbl vs 400 2bbl carb, 460 4v heads vs 2v heads on the 400, and 10:1 compression 460-7:1 compression on the 400M. With this, yje 400M still produces 80% of the 460 power. The 400 has huge potential! When the big blocks were finally smog ready, bigger is better!, so why buy teh 400 when you have a 460? Thats why there nevr was a high poformer version, it was designed for trucks and huge cars. The 400M was like running the Olympics with a gas mask on. let the thing breath and she'll come alive. I had one built stock with an RV cam, aftermarket intake and 4bbl carb, and it was a torgue monster. I was very impressed! The 351M was short 50 CID, so go figure. There really was no popular smog engine that really performed, so these powerplants get a bad rap.

 

I currentlty have a 2002 ford Superduty with a 5.4L triton SOHC. It's puked 3 spark plugs this year alone and the last a month after putting a $3200. cylinder head on for a grand total of 4 plugs puked within 2 yrs and over $5000 in personal costs, now Ford wants another $6000 for a new engine on top of that! So I am swaping out my 5.4L Triton SOHC with a 400M or 460. I know what the 400M can do and is capable of, I really liked it, but since I'm completely swapping in a new motor, I'm trying to find good reasons why the 460 should go in in it's stead? There really isn't much of an HP gain in it, and parts are easy since the 400M has many Cleveland parts on it! I have noticed that the 460requires a high volume fuel pump and the 400m had that as an option. Fuel ecconomy and effecieency is what I'm build ing for, so with a return line on the fuel, it either one really shouldnt drink so much gas. I'm mating a ZF 5S-42 trans I have is out of an 88 F-350 and I'm mounting an NP 250 transfer case to it for my drive train.


They say you cant swap out the newer trucks with older engines. I'm going to show Ford and their engineers how to do it, and a little taste of what we in the aviation comunity can do. But thats why they work on cars, and we work on jets! lol.

 

Wow what an old thread,anyway a 460 can easily be built with a longer than 4 inch stroke which would exeed the 400.

 

True enough; the 400M did have a weak valve train, mechanics early on though that it was run with out oil due to the wear. But it was just a weak design, upgrading to a high volume oil pump takes care of the lack of oil top side. The 400 did have 4" main journals, and what that mean is durability and longevity!


The 400 did what it was designed to do! There wasn’t enough of a market for them with larger engine options, so that’s why the short run! Ford could have redesigned the internal cyl heads for external ones and even redesigned the exhaust side of the cyl head to not be so sharp! Edelbrock has the aftermarket head for the 351C/351M/400M. Based off of the 351C design, that addressed the issue of the heads.


People are discovering the 400M and getting 500HP & 565 ft/lb torque! Not bad for a ******* motor that everyone seems to just hate and resent for no reason! If you have a 460 I’m very happy for all of you. But only the ignorant mind that thinks they know more than what they actually do, tend to act like they are the authority of the subject matter and bash others of unlike opinions. I have no problem putting a 400M up to a 460 any day! I just feel comfortable in the capabilities of my power plant and set up. It’s built for my wants and needs. I need a torque motor with plenty of power that is fuel efficient. It fits the bill better than any other engine I’ve looked into. Remember, it’s my truck, not yours. Some of you really seem to act like you know about something you really have no clue about. But I have done deep research into the 400M and I can back up my data. The 400M is the under dog, she did what she was asked and designed to do, nothing more. You cant be mad at her for that!

 

Ther is no doubt that the 460 is indeed a great engine! And yes I'm sure there are many ways to increase the stroke and upgrade everything to it. It is a bigger engine and should make big power in both torgue and HP. I just wanted to shed some light in defense of the 400. they were bashing something they really didn't understand. Like I mentioned, I'm looking at reasons why the 460 should go in instead of the 400M.