Cessnas to be made in China
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2005
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the problem is there is no way on many fronts that US businesses can compete with the labor market in other countries, it is just about impossible in many areas.
plus many of these "free trade" things are nothing but unfair trade.
also, many countries subsidize their businesses in order to drive down prices to compete in other markets, this is really fair?
it is real easy just to say "make a business" or "make products people want". that would be a great concept ONLY with a level playing field. but right now, the playing field is not level.
some companies are able to compete only because of the nature of the business they are in. others are and have fell victim to numerous disadvantages a business has competing with competition overseas.
but i hope businesses realize who gave them the opportuntity and freedom to make themselves successful in the first place, and it sure was not communist china.
plus many of these "free trade" things are nothing but unfair trade.
also, many countries subsidize their businesses in order to drive down prices to compete in other markets, this is really fair?
it is real easy just to say "make a business" or "make products people want". that would be a great concept ONLY with a level playing field. but right now, the playing field is not level.
some companies are able to compete only because of the nature of the business they are in. others are and have fell victim to numerous disadvantages a business has competing with competition overseas.
but i hope businesses realize who gave them the opportuntity and freedom to make themselves successful in the first place, and it sure was not communist china.
Fleet Owner
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 29,941
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From: Drummonds, TN USA
Another way to put it - If you cannot have illegal aliens working for you in THIS country, then why not send the factories themselves to where the source of the illegal aliens happens to be...
Senior User
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I don't think you could call it "competition" if you have to import a product from the country that invented it (rather than invent your own) and use a repressed populace to take instructions from those that moved it there to manufacture it at a ridiculously lower labor cost.
The reason for the move is greater profit and profit alone to the wigs at the top of the corporation and not for any other reason. After 30 years and the Chinese begin to demand more pay and benefits, they will relocate to somewhere in Africa - if the company still exists.
I don't have a b***h with earning a profit. Every business has it or it isn't a business. What I have a problem with is what happens to the profit - i.e., outrageous salaries and bonuses for the top management that is out of line with all reason.
European companies, as a rule, pay top executives much less than American companies do. European executives earn in the hundreds of thousands whereas American executives earn in the hundreds of millions. It's just a form of "legal" theft from the companies' till.
The reason for the move is greater profit and profit alone to the wigs at the top of the corporation and not for any other reason. After 30 years and the Chinese begin to demand more pay and benefits, they will relocate to somewhere in Africa - if the company still exists.
I don't have a b***h with earning a profit. Every business has it or it isn't a business. What I have a problem with is what happens to the profit - i.e., outrageous salaries and bonuses for the top management that is out of line with all reason.
European companies, as a rule, pay top executives much less than American companies do. European executives earn in the hundreds of thousands whereas American executives earn in the hundreds of millions. It's just a form of "legal" theft from the companies' till.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 1997
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From: Enjoying the real world.
Originally Posted by Greywolf
Junk is not worth it no matter how low the price. If Harley Davidson can pull it's collective head out - so can others.
Last edited by FTE Ken; Dec 3, 2007 at 07:13 AM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,473
Likes: 4
From: Lafayette, IN
I think the biggest problem with more and more of our goods being manufactured behind other borders is when it comes to a serious war--we won't have the manufacturing capacity to produce our war machines. And, with China ramping up all sectors of manufacturing, they will (don't forget that their top general called the U.S. "Enemy #1" just a few years ago).
NAFTA was a very raw deal for us, and not just because of the jobs.
But, hey, as long as we have our Xboxes and lattes...
(I just realized this is in the GNA forum, so I hope I wasn't too political...)
Jason
NAFTA was a very raw deal for us, and not just because of the jobs.
But, hey, as long as we have our Xboxes and lattes...
(I just realized this is in the GNA forum, so I hope I wasn't too political...)
Jason
Last edited by jroehl; Dec 3, 2007 at 08:02 AM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2005
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what gets me about chinese and american made things is this....just one example off the top of my head but it seems that when looking for an american made thing, it always is some high end luxury type thing. example (do not know if real or not) is something like a coffee maker.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
Ford Parts Specialist
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 88,826
Likes: 783
From: Simi Valley, CA
Originally Posted by bf250
just one example off the top of my head but it seems that when looking for an american made thing, it always is some high end luxury type thing. example (do not know if real or not) is something like a coffee maker.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
High buck $200.00 Hamilton-Beach coffee maker sold by Macy's is made in....uh...China, the same place as Mr. Coffee's $19.00 maker
In fact, if you look at the labels on most goods in high dollar department stores, like Macy's or Nordstroms....if you find something Made in the US of A, it'll be amazing.
I was in L.L. Beans outlet store in Maine last year, all I saw was made in: China, Bangladesh, India...it was disgusting.
Everything from t-shirts to "hand carved" Totem Poles displayed in Alaska gift shops: Made in China. It gets worse. China made souvineers have flooded the European market.
Better check that label, you don't want to disappoint Aunt Susie with that Made in China label on those "Italian Shoes."
Last edited by NumberDummy; Dec 3, 2007 at 09:36 AM.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
Originally Posted by bf250
what gets me about chinese and american made things is this....just one example off the top of my head but it seems that when looking for an american made thing, it always is some high end luxury type thing. example (do not know if real or not) is something like a coffee maker.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
china would have some or a few low level to decent type ones for low prices, then a big jump in price to the american mad eone because the american made one would be some stainless steel wonder with led lights and everything.
it seems even among american made things, there are less low cost items made, seems more and more american made things are just high end "luxury" stuff that i have no interest in buying.
Airplanes of this type have been made in Europe, especially Eastern Europe, for years now. There at least one made-in-USA alternative, but without the Cessna brand name.
http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/index.html
http://www.newplane.com/amd/amd/601_SLSA/price.html
The price is $85-100k. This plane used to be built in Eastern Europe, and production was brought here. A weaker dollar has some benefits. I have flown a factory demonstrator and I was impressed. Note: I have no financial interest in AMD, its dealers or suppliers.
Jim
Last edited by jimandmandy; Dec 3, 2007 at 09:37 AM.
New User
Joined: Jan 2008
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Likes: 24
Originally Posted by jroehl
NAFTA was a very raw deal for us, and not just because of the jobs.
Jason
Jason
Just Canada ,USA Mexico.
The North American FreeTrade Agreement
You're thinking the recent "Global Economy".
There are tons of nations right now that want to get in on NAFTA agreement.
Right now the only real beneficery is "Mexico"
Canada practically gives away our resources
US and Canada have lost a lot of the Manufacturering sector
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 1
From: Sonoita Hills, AZ
I work in a company with a union, the union is basically gragging down the company. There is only 51% in the union. The union isn't smart enough to work with the company to solve issues. The union protects many people that don't want to show up, or earn thier pay checks. This downward trend has been going on for 22 years, and I have been watching its slow spiral as it goes down. Don't get me wrong unions have done alot for this country, but their usefulness has worn out. One girl whop works here just got fired, they told her in the last five years, she hadn't worked more than 45% of the time !! And there was nothing wrong with her, except she is lazy. The union needs to work with the company to improve things or it will be a thing of the past.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,245
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Originally Posted by FTE Ken
Chaulk another on up to oppressive tax evironment and unions.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Jul 2004
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Cessna would do well to partner with someone like Honda or Toyota (I'd say GM or Ford, but they are having enough troubles right now as is) who has the manufacturing capability to pump out aircraft inexpensively opposed to their outdated 60s manufacturing model. That's the biggest thing that's keeping GA so expensive. Not to mention they might be able to build an engine that doesn't require 100LL to run, which is basically a boutique fuel made exclusively for aviation uses. Which is why its been over $3 a gallon (hard pressed to find some place selling it for less than $4.50 now!) in some areas for 10+ years.
Pumping out 100 aircraft a month is going to keep prices high. If GA is to survive, someone has to put a $30-40k aircraft on the market that real people can afford. Of course that will mean ditching the $30-40k glass cockpits that Piper and Cessna are outfitting in almost everything that rolls off the line in exchange for the more traditional VFR panel found in countless aircraft built back in the 60s and 70s and let people add stuff as they wish. Economies of scale just don't exist in GA right now and the current players don't have the resources to make that happen on their own.
Pumping out 100 aircraft a month is going to keep prices high. If GA is to survive, someone has to put a $30-40k aircraft on the market that real people can afford. Of course that will mean ditching the $30-40k glass cockpits that Piper and Cessna are outfitting in almost everything that rolls off the line in exchange for the more traditional VFR panel found in countless aircraft built back in the 60s and 70s and let people add stuff as they wish. Economies of scale just don't exist in GA right now and the current players don't have the resources to make that happen on their own.
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Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 5,228
Likes: 5
From: Running Springs CA
Honda already is in GA, at the $millions high-end of the market with the HondaJet. I dont think they are interested in the low-end. Toyota tried, and apparently failed, to design a new generation small GA airplane a few years ago.
The Continental 0-200 engine in the Cessna 162 is perfectly happy on unleaded automotive gasoline (not ethanol blend). Its only the turbocharged high-end engines that need leaded fuel.
There is just not the market to support automotive-style assembly lines and economies of scale that go with them. 100 aircraft a month is huge volume in this business. The only way to get a new airplane for $30k is to build it yourself. Which is what I am doing.
Jim
The Continental 0-200 engine in the Cessna 162 is perfectly happy on unleaded automotive gasoline (not ethanol blend). Its only the turbocharged high-end engines that need leaded fuel.
There is just not the market to support automotive-style assembly lines and economies of scale that go with them. 100 aircraft a month is huge volume in this business. The only way to get a new airplane for $30k is to build it yourself. Which is what I am doing.
Jim