Before people jump all over me, I am quite aware that this is NOT the biodiesel part of the forum. I did post something on this over there, but seeing as it appears to be a technical issue specific to this model of truck, I felt I should mention it here.

A 6.4L truck owner/biodiesel user recently sent me this:

I drive a few older (2002, 1996, 1990) Ford trucks myself, but I am by no means an expert. Can anyone here explain the science here in terms I can understand? I aim to talk to the dealership as well, but I'd like to become a little better informed, first.

By the way, I really don't want this thread to become a debate on the merits of using biodiesel. If I say "biodiesel works in a diesel engine" and you say "no it doesn't", that doesn't really help in the context of this discussion, where I am trying to find out how exactly the emissions system could respond differently between ULSD and biodiesel. Why would the burnoff cycle stick?

Thanks.

 

I am not spamming! I thought I explained the reason for two posts pretty well. From wikipedia:

I am clearly discriminating (as far as where I put my message), and I am not doing any kind of commercial marketing. I am trying to research something, and I am counting on people in various forums (including this one) to take me seriously and treat me with respect. It is my hope that someone who knows something might be able to help me understand this issue.

 

Well looks like his fault, if it would burn more than B5 I think Ford would have put it in the manual.......

 

That doesn't help with the "why" part of my question. It appears there is an issue with the burnoff cycle. That is what I am trying to decipher.

 

bio can cause more soot which can cause more regens. the system is setup to read pressure and temps and if one is not satisfied then it stays in regen until the ecm is happy.

 

Historically speaking (I understand that this engine could be different), biodiesel produces less soot (in the range of 50% less, if I'm not mistaken) than diesel. If what you are saying is right, then one of these trucks would have a much worse case of this particular affliction if it was given the LSD (as opposed to ULSD) that we were all using just last year. I have a hard time believing Ford would allow for that, seeing as I'm sure there are various fleets, not to mention many private users with oversized storage, still using LSD.

 

It may produce less soot, but what does the Bio emit that ULSD does not?

 

There would conceivably be more NOx emissions. But in general, far less overall emissions. That's why people use it. One concern I have is that the system might be calibrated to tolerate a certain amount of material buildup, and that it might NOT be seeing enough to trigger an event.

 

But if it wasn't seeing enough buildup to trigger a regen then it wouldn't trigger one. I don't think it would do the opposite and trigger one that didn't shut off. I think there has to be something different between the two fuels and the systems isn't calibrated for that one thing, whatever it may be. Causing to not shut of the regen cycle. IMO

 

It uses a pressure sensor to detect how much exhaust back pressure there is. There would have been the same amount of build as there would have been with diesel to trigger enough back pressure.

 

We don't allow concentrations in our US07 engines higher than B5 either. I'm trying to find out why.

 

What is allowed is different than what can work. Ford acts as if they can deny warranty for usage of biodiesel over 5%, but the law prevents them from doing so in a blanket fashion: they can only do that if they can point to actual harm caused. It is this law (the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act) that allows many Ford enthusiasts to use aftermarket parts and still get warranty work done, as long as the aftermarket parts are high quality. Similarly, biodiesel users have been able to depend on the fact that, as long as their fuel meets the ASTM standard, which was designed with a diesel engine's health and longevity in mind, they will still have a functioning vehicle warranty, regardless of % of biodiesel in their fuel.

In the past, there have not been design features that actually prevented a vehicle from running well on biodiesel, which is why I am not creating threads like this about every other Ford diesel truck ever made. I have well over a 100,000 miles on my Ford trucks using 100% biodiesel- I know that might make some of you think I'm crazy. The point is, good quality biodiesel has always worked in a diesel engine the same as good quality diesel, with 3 caveats that users need to know (1: solvent effect cleans fuel system and initially clogs filters, 2: solvent effect may necessitate better fuel lines in older vehicles, and 3: cold weather usage may need to be additized to prevent cold crystals from clogging the filter).

The 5% line is an old standby from OEM's that is strictly American - the same engines are "allowed" to use much higher concentrations of biodiesel in Europe, where quality control is more tightly enforced.

Even so, the 5% thing is changing here in America. Cummins is allowing B20 in certain Dodge vehicles, and is even filling them up with biodiesel blends in the factory.

Sorry to go offtopic. I know you are all very familiar with Magnusson Moss. What the OEM's say is allowed and what is actually allowed are two different things.

 

Yes, but you're comparing apples and oranges. Europe doesn't use dpfs yet in anything but pass cars. Also, if an OEM gives a guideline, it's for good reason. The Magnuson Moss Act protects the consumer by making the offending part supplier responsible for damages. You would be hard pressed to prove your fuel was the culprit when the evidence is gone.

 

Magnusson Moss also protects the manufacturers of quality aftermarket components, and THAT DOES include fuel. Just because some fuel has been burned does not mean "evidence" is destroyed. I've done a lot of troubleshooting for people over the years- there's always a trail left by a fuel problem, whether or not that fuel is still in the vehicle. And if people are being honest, there is always the fuel supply, where the fuel came from. Ideally, the OEM's and the biodiesel industry would be working together a whole lot closer than they are, so each can spec their product to work with the other.

But we're getting off-topic (and will the clown who keeps spamming this thread with pictures please stop?). My point with this thread is to find out what's actually going on with the emission system problem that this fella had, because I have no idea why biodiesel would cause the burnoff cycle to stick and petro diesel wouldn't. I want to get some education on that. If the best answer you can give me is something like, "biodiesel is not allowed", or a picture of a gun-mailbox (???), then please save it.

I respect you all and appreciate this forum. Otherwise I wouldn't come here. Thank you.

 

bio can be more efficient emmision wise, but it depends on what it is made from, espeacially if it is mixed with lsd. the regen cycle cleans out the dpf which catches particulate matter and that is not just soot. once the pressure sensor in the dpf sees a certain reading, regen will happen, and the truck will stay in regen untill the ecm is satisfied.