Overcooling????
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,130
Likes: 8
From: Brea CA
Overcooling????
Umm Karl, the Ford Service Specifications Handbooks from ’58 thru the early ‘70s lists two stats for the FE, 160 and 180. I can scan them if you like.
Also I got the best 1/4 times with cooler engines, when they warmed up they slowed down. The smallblock really liked to run cold, the FE a little warmer. I’m not saying they run efficient at these low temps though. Plus they make more power when you run richer then the stoichiometric ideal.
Looks like this “Overcooling” post is starting to overheat, hope it doesn’t boil over.
Barry
[link:www.ford-trucks.com/guidelines.html | FTE Moderator]
Also I got the best 1/4 times with cooler engines, when they warmed up they slowed down. The smallblock really liked to run cold, the FE a little warmer. I’m not saying they run efficient at these low temps though. Plus they make more power when you run richer then the stoichiometric ideal.
Looks like this “Overcooling” post is starting to overheat, hope it doesn’t boil over.
Barry
[link:www.ford-trucks.com/guidelines.html | FTE Moderator]
Tuned
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 405
Likes: 2
From: Ft. Walton Bch 32547
Overcooling????
If that is true about the higher cylinder temps, what would keep the fuel/air from igniting before it was supposed to? Think about it. I'm certain that 2000 degree temps would not work at all with gasoline as we know it. The hotter an engine is, the worse problem we tend to have with preignition. Ever try to drive on a overheating engine? They rattle and run very poorly with no power. And that's only at about 250 degrees or so. With a cooler thermostat, the timing can be advanced more on a high compression engine, thus making more power then the same engine with a higher temperature thermostat. I also agree with BBB on the drag racing issue. I have many runs under my belt. The best 1/4 mile times are achieved with an engine that has been run ONLY long enough to heat the oil a little. A cooler engine WILL though make more contaminants in the atmosphere. Also, I still don't see how a 160 degree thermostat will shorten the life of an engine. With a film of oil on the cylinder walls, the piston is never actually touching the cylinder, except maybe at startup. Is this not true? I've seen 100,000 mile plus engines run at 160 that still had the factory crosshatch hone marks on the cylinders. I'm sorry, but you can't make me believe that a lower temp thermostat has hurt a thing. (without documentation)
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: Oztralia
Overcooling????
the challenge is to keep the heads cool and the bore warm
thus a cold stat give good 1/4 mile at the sacrifice of wear
reverse coolant flow attends to this but I dont think and FE will cope with that
thus a cold stat give good 1/4 mile at the sacrifice of wear
reverse coolant flow attends to this but I dont think and FE will cope with that
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,130
Likes: 8
From: Brea CA
Overcooling????
Not to beat a dead horse but checked the '68 Ford Truck Shop Manual, says 160 and 180.
Hey Wayne I've thought about reverse flow in a FE for quite some time. What do you think are the inherent problems with it? Thanks!
Barry
Hey Wayne I've thought about reverse flow in a FE for quite some time. What do you think are the inherent problems with it? Thanks!
Barry
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 962
Likes: 2
From: Collierville, TN
Overcooling????
What Wayne (Oz) said. My point is that you do need to keep the intake charge cool, but engine block temperature has little to do with it. Trust me, your combustion chamber surface temp is a lot higher than 160 or 180 as it is. Autoignition occurs as a result of the compression of the intake charge, because as a gas is compressed, it heats up.
Let's all agree that this is a pretty academic discussion with lots of opinions, some science, and very few facts. To settle the issue, we'd need to do multiple dyno pulls on an engine at various coolant temps, ignition timings, etc., and we'd need to run identical engines for thousands of hours at different temps and then measure wear. We don't have the ability to do that. I suspect we would find very slight differences. I don't doubt that the cooler stat could result in a few more ponies, but I'm also confident that an engine with clearances optimized for an operating temp of 180-190 will ultimately wear out quicker when operated at a significantly higher or lower temp.
The bottom line is that we all agree that there's no reason for him to be concerned about the health of his engine if there are no visible signs of trouble. In other words, whatever your feeling about the best stat to run, we're in agreement that he shouldn't crack open his motor or lose any sleep about it.
'Nuff said from me.
Let's all agree that this is a pretty academic discussion with lots of opinions, some science, and very few facts. To settle the issue, we'd need to do multiple dyno pulls on an engine at various coolant temps, ignition timings, etc., and we'd need to run identical engines for thousands of hours at different temps and then measure wear. We don't have the ability to do that. I suspect we would find very slight differences. I don't doubt that the cooler stat could result in a few more ponies, but I'm also confident that an engine with clearances optimized for an operating temp of 180-190 will ultimately wear out quicker when operated at a significantly higher or lower temp.
The bottom line is that we all agree that there's no reason for him to be concerned about the health of his engine if there are no visible signs of trouble. In other words, whatever your feeling about the best stat to run, we're in agreement that he shouldn't crack open his motor or lose any sleep about it.
'Nuff said from me.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: Oztralia
Overcooling????
weellllllllllllllllllll
I always found it hard to control max power, detonation on my FE's unless I had a 160 (cr = 10.75:1).
But I have also seen the wear on bores that have run cold or low temp stats.
Different stats for different jobs.
Reverse flowing an FE with std layout is challenged maily by steam.
Conventional allows the steam to rise and move with the flow.
Reverse flow has some problems.
Maybe a bypass hose in a few places (on the heads)
How would you hook up the pump ?
Where do you draw the water from - center welsh plugs ?
Where do you push the cold water in?
Gotta be careful not to put too cold a water onto the cumbustion chamber (cracks), ie a better thermostat system needed.
Alloy heads will help
I always found it hard to control max power, detonation on my FE's unless I had a 160 (cr = 10.75:1).
But I have also seen the wear on bores that have run cold or low temp stats.
Different stats for different jobs.
Reverse flowing an FE with std layout is challenged maily by steam.
Conventional allows the steam to rise and move with the flow.
Reverse flow has some problems.
Maybe a bypass hose in a few places (on the heads)
How would you hook up the pump ?
Where do you draw the water from - center welsh plugs ?
Where do you push the cold water in?
Gotta be careful not to put too cold a water onto the cumbustion chamber (cracks), ie a better thermostat system needed.
Alloy heads will help
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,070
Likes: 2
From: Boise, Idaho
Overcooling????
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 02-May-02 AT 05:28 AM (EST)]Two 'attaboys'. One to dinosaurfan for the explanation of coefficients of friction between iron and aluminum, the other to karlsd for the reference to specific heat.
Guys like this make this board worth reading. Thanks guys.
Guys like this make this board worth reading. Thanks guys.
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,130
Likes: 8
From: Brea CA
Overcooling????
>Two 'attaboys'. One to dinosaurfan for the
>explanation of coefficients of friction between iron and
>aluminum, the other to karlsd for the
>reference to specific heat.
>
>Guys like this make this board worth reading. Thanks guys.
Hey what about the reference to stoichiometric?
Barry
>explanation of coefficients of friction between iron and
>aluminum, the other to karlsd for the
>reference to specific heat.
>
>Guys like this make this board worth reading. Thanks guys.
Hey what about the reference to stoichiometric?
Barry
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,504
Likes: 1
From: Texas
Overcooling????
I'm running a 180* t-stat, with a bottle of Royal Purple's Purple Ice cooling additive. Mine runs a consistent 170, it occasionaly jumps to 190 while sitting in traffic. But let me say this, I plan on putting A/C on this truck, that's why I went with the 180* and the Purple Shtuff....
Kyle
Kyle
Senior User
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Overcooling????
I definitely agree with BBB: Lower thermostat will not hurt anything. Even with a lower engine temp, the oil will still be hot enough to reach the criticial areas of the cylinder walls. A perfect example I think is a boat with an open cooling system. You have the biggest radiator ever and the motors will run 140-150 temps at sustained speeds all day-year after year.
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
From: Kansas
Overcooling????
I'm glad to see one of my posts is serving so many members.
Again, thanks to all. I'm not losing sleep, but will change the thermostat when I do my flush/hose replacement in the near future.
Now, another question. Will a properly-flowing radiator overfill the top tank with the cap off? Started cold with the cap removed, I let it warm up, and when the stat started working, it would rise up progressively higher each cycle, until it would come out the neck. My other truck, which runs hot on the road and normal in the driveway, does this. I think it is a flow problem, and am planning to flush the system and replace the radiator, hoses, and pump (all of unknown age). If that doesn't fix it, I'll be seeking yet more advice.
Matt
Again, thanks to all. I'm not losing sleep, but will change the thermostat when I do my flush/hose replacement in the near future.
Now, another question. Will a properly-flowing radiator overfill the top tank with the cap off? Started cold with the cap removed, I let it warm up, and when the stat started working, it would rise up progressively higher each cycle, until it would come out the neck. My other truck, which runs hot on the road and normal in the driveway, does this. I think it is a flow problem, and am planning to flush the system and replace the radiator, hoses, and pump (all of unknown age). If that doesn't fix it, I'll be seeking yet more advice.
Matt
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 962
Likes: 2
From: Collierville, TN
Overcooling????
The expansion tank will overflow if your system is overfilled, and I suppose that a plugged radiator would also lead to overflowing. The expansion tank is intended to prevent spillage, however, by containing the excess when the system heats up, and allowing it to be drawn back in when the system cools down. If you have coolant spilling out the top, something is wrong.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 962
Likes: 2
From: Collierville, TN
Overcooling????
Frankly, I'm not entirely sure, but that rarely stops me from attempting to answer someone's question. So here's my theorizing and wild guesses:
I don't think it's necessarily a problem. The cap is supposed to be on, because the system builds up pressure. If the system overpressurizes, the valve in the cap opens and allows excess pressure (and coolant) to flow out the overflow hose. I would guess that the a system that overflows the top of the radiator with the cap off may work just fine with the cap on.
Then again, I may be completely wrong on that. I've never seen a radiator literally overflow through the cap. Are you sure the system isn't overfilled? You could always just call a radiator shop (one with a few gray-bearded old men who remember the days before expansion tanks) and ask them. Then, of course, tell us what you learned.
I don't think it's necessarily a problem. The cap is supposed to be on, because the system builds up pressure. If the system overpressurizes, the valve in the cap opens and allows excess pressure (and coolant) to flow out the overflow hose. I would guess that the a system that overflows the top of the radiator with the cap off may work just fine with the cap on.
Then again, I may be completely wrong on that. I've never seen a radiator literally overflow through the cap. Are you sure the system isn't overfilled? You could always just call a radiator shop (one with a few gray-bearded old men who remember the days before expansion tanks) and ask them. Then, of course, tell us what you learned.
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 306
Likes: 1
From: Hollister, CA
Overcooling????
I don't think it is a problem either, I've seen it before on more than one of my vehicles. It just slowly climbs up as the engine warms up. As you increase RPMS, does the level drop or go up? I seem to remember that it should drop.
I did had one that would blow coolant out of the overflow hose when I got on it - no hood at the time. That was due to a blown head gasket.
Good luck,
Reggie
I did had one that would blow coolant out of the overflow hose when I got on it - no hood at the time. That was due to a blown head gasket.
Good luck,
Reggie