Thanks for the sanity check.

I guess all my massive research in Hickok's literature and Ford's service manuals and engineers papers regarding the EEC-IV did not mislead me after all.

 

Think again...

 

yup, thats true. EGR lowers combustion temperatures. Detonation at times can be a wash, due to the increase in inlet temps. You pretty much have to play that one by ear. literally...

 

Blocking off the exhaust gas from entering the intake does not disable the system as far as the EEC is concerned. If the system (EGR Valve Regulator (EVR) solenoid, EGR valve and EVP) is intact and operational no diagnostic failure code (hard or soft) will register. How do you know there was no detonation?

Now Eco,I'm all for one upping (or attempting to) but isn't that statement that you said^...the same friggin thing that Conanski said in the first place?Seems like your contradicting yourself.....here...here's a button that says..."insert foot in mouth" want me to push it for you or am I pushing enough of your cocky buttons?Petty BS is all this is...all it ever is when you reply to a post.

 

Point out the contradiction.

I fail to see how the theory behind reintroducing exhaust gas into the intake and how it relates to the timing tables as per the EEC-IV logic + combustion temperatures and how trying to eliminate the system could potentially lead to detonation is petty. Why don't you explain this one to me?

I can however see how your weak attempt to try to find a contradiction and point it out to me just to show how superior of a person you think you are could qualify as petty.

 

This is true, however this is the flaw in your reasoning in this particular instance..........The EGR gases are not oxygen rich air, but actually spent air and burned fuel gasses and particals.

In the context of EGR, this spent air supply is just a combustion neutral filler and neither causes a leaner or richer mixture.

And the sole purpose of the EGR is to lower combustion temps to prevent the creation of Oxides of Nitrogen.

I however have also blocked off EGR's and could never notice any negatives, but what eco says makes a lot of sence and I never thought of that aspect of the timing advances ect.

I know however that I can block off my EGR and it will not throw a code as long as the EGR system is properly working with it unblocked.

But I'm MAF.

 

The only thing missing here, is when you do block off the EGR, your not 100% blocking off the EGR, like it makes a big difference, but gasses are still flowing though to trick the sensor in to thinking the EGR is active.

Theoretically, if the EGR system is removed, your truck will always be prone to detonation, and constantly will, due to high combustion tempatures.

Thus, you yourself, and all who have removed this device, designed to make your vehicle run better, are obviously stupid in some form, because you are causing detonation in your engine for no reason.

As for realistic purposes, detonation will occur when the air tempature being brought into the engine is hot enough to cause combustion in an early stage of compression. Which is technically how a diesel runs. Heated gases mixed with air, combust due to tempature and compression.

The only time detonation can be bad, is if it detonates to far before top dead center.
Ford runs 10degreeze before top dead center. which means the truck is fireing before the piston reaches the top.
If detonation is occuring, i'm sure its not much before that at all. Maybe 15? 20 tops?
Some are running their trucks here with it anywhere from 10-20 btdc.

All in all, this is a fruitless argument, and you guys, even if your pointing fingers, and what not, or defending yourselves. You are basically saying that your stupid because you removed the EGR system which "lowers combustion tempatures"
Which of course i'm tottaly unfamilar with. Because, as far as i understand, its to recycle used gases into the air fuel mixture to burn off those gasses further.
I'm not sure how 200 degree+ gases can "cool" a combustion chamber.
But if they do, hey, cool. (pun)

As for self advancing for timing on a ford. i honestly know, nor have heard of this, but it could be true.

Regardless. Hacked or not. By removing the EGR equipment, or disableing it, via resistor, or restrictor plate.You are all showing your un-love for your truck (and or van in eco's case) by allowing it to operate at higher tempatures. Shame on you all.

Now, i'm not making anything up here, I'm going by the information in the post.

damn you people like to argue the stupidest things.

Epncsu.
I'm not really sure how you can mix gas, air, and NOx emissions, and have them "not mix"
If displacement is the case, theoretically, you would be running a higher compression value at that point due to the "displacement" of the emissions.
Perhaps this is the purpose?

 

Please explain. What sensor are you takng about and how is EGR still getting into the combustion chamber when it is blocked off from entering the intake?

If no exhaust gas in reintroduced into the intake AND the timing does not advance as it normally would when the EGR system is operating then it would be as if the EGR logic was never programmed into the EEC-IV in the first place. If what you are saying is true, then you are saying these engines would be prone to detonation at idle, WOT and when an EGR code is registered...conditions that EGR is disabled. Obviously, this is not the case. These motors don't detonate at idle then all of a sudden run fine at part throttle. The motor is better off without EGR, but it does pullute more. It is better off because all the carbon and particulate that comes along with the EGR no longer enters the intake plenum and thus the intake manifold, plenum, intake valves etc. stay cleaner and without carbon deposite galore...plus the air intake is cooler without the EGR.


Wrong, it is for reducing the production of oxides of nitrogen.


Wrong, if the exhaust gas never enters the intake AND the timing is not advanced, then the motor will be just fine. If you block off the intake AND allow the timing to still advance, then there is a potential "un-love" for the truck/van.

Either thats a lie, a joke or you just plain don't understand how an EGR system works.

 

Hmmmm,good points Eco...especially about the ones where I'm superior to you...Oh,I'm sorry I'm twisting your words...seems familiar?I thought the purpose of this ******* argument was on how to trick the ECU into thinking the EGR was still there...didn't know that putting ablockoff plate between the EGR and the intake was reintroducing...Since you like quoting your books so much and it seems like you rarely have anything else to do other than argue with someone you don't even know...why don't you state HOW installing a block off plate between the EGR and intakeis REINTRODUCTION??????You say resistor...he says block off plate....big friggin whoop.Just cause your way is another way...doesn't also mean it's the only way to do something.........Other people have other ways of doing things....and in different orders.Is that illegal?No.Is your argument over this whole subject completely and utterly childish?I think so.Like I said before......you ALWAYS attempt to one up someone once they have ONCE AGAIN proved how wrong and idiotic a conversation really is with you.I take your opinions and "statements"...if they could even be called that lightly...and I think alot of others should too.Your FIRST posts always seem...I don't know,smart?Like tis one...you gave this guy great advice pertaining to the original subject...which he needed....but after seeing this?Ha...doubt he'll comin back to these forums now...specially after your little "show".Now...you can bitch and whine all about this post...which I know your gonna do...cause it's in your nature......butI am unsubscribing to this thread....Sure you didn't mean to type EGO as your screen name instead of ECO?I think you did.

 

Stop being a troll, flareside_thunder.

What eco is saying is that by simply blocking the EGR between the valve and the intake while leaving the rest of the system in place is telling the computer that the valve is open and exhaust gases are being recirculated like normal, based on EGR valve position feedback. What he has suggested is after blocking physically, the flow of the exhaust recirculation gases, is to disable control of the valve so that it remains closed, thus telling the computer that no exhaust gases are being introduced into the intake stream. Excluding the later models with a DPFE sensor, the computer does not know the actual flow of exhaust gases--it only knows the valve position, and assuming everything is working like it should, the computer assumes the EGR flow is correct simply based on that position feedback. It's not that hard to figure out, and at this point you guys are just busting eco's *****.

To answer some questions from above:
See the first paragraph in this post.
Prone? yes. But as eco stated, EGR is not active at closed throttle nor wide open throttle, yet Ford has found a way to safely operate the engine at these conditions without the engine detonating to death.

While the likelihood of detonation/pre-ignition is greater with increased inlet air temperatures, the auto-ignition is caused by excessive temperature and pressure in the end-gas region of the combustion chamber (farthest from the spark plug) which, yes is influenced by inlet air. This detonation occurs very late in the compression stroke, near TDC. Technically, a diesel does not run like this because the fuel is introduced immediately prior to TDC, whereas a spark ignition engine (unless direct injected) has a homogeneous air/fuel charge inducted during the intake stroke.

Detonation is always bad, even in a diesel. Detonation is uncontrolled combustion, which causes spikes in cylinder pressures, which over time can damage pistons, rings, and rod bearings, and if those spikes are high enough, can even punch a hole in the piston top. Imagine pinging as someone hitting the top of the piston with a hammer. Pre-ignition can be caused by hot spots in the combustion chamber igniting the fuel mixture before the flame front reaches that area, or it may be caused by excessive temperature and pressure in the end-gas region if spark timing is too far advanced. The pressure wave propogates faster than the flame front and ignites the end gas mixture which creates a second flame front and pressure wave that meets somewhere between the end-gas region and the spark plug where pressure spikes and an audible ping is heard (or not sometimes). This doesn't necessarily have to occur before TDC, but most of the time it does. I would say that the actual detonation or pre-ignition occurs pretty close to TDC, not the 20 degrees tops that was suggested. Spark is always initiated before TDC so that the maximum pressure occurs slightly after TDC which maximizes the force across the piston without having a spike in pressure at one localized place. This maximizes power output.

The EGR gases lower peak combustion temperatures, not the inlet mixture temperature--there is a difference, so your logic does hold partially. The only thing burned of the EGR gases may be a few stray hydrocarbons, but the percentage of exhaust recirculated to the exhaust that exits the tailpipe is too small to gain anything in the re-burn department.

The computer controls all timing advance, and varies based on input from all the sensors, including EGR valve position, and thus, assumed EGR flow (see first paragraph of this post for explanation on EGR valve position sensing).

I agree with you here. I try to keep everything functional on my truck, but to each his own.

The EGR gases displace cylinder volume that would otherwise be filled with air/fuel mixture, which lowers the volumetric efficiency, reducing the amount of fuel required to create the correct air fuel ratio. The same volume is available for inlet mixture, but adding inert gases to that volume decreases the amount of air and fuel that are able to fit in the cylinder. There's no change in compression due to EGR. Sure all the gases and whatnot mix together in the cylinder--I didn't mean to imply that they did not physically mix. The NOx emissions are generated from high combustion temperatures as they split apart the nitrogen part of the inlet air (air is ~78% nitrogen). The EGR lowers this peak combustion temperature, which reduces the amount of NOx emissions produced by the combustion event.

I'm not trying to insult anyone or anything like that, I just want the correct information to be out there for others to read. If anyone wants to read up on engines, the source of all my information is the book Engineering Fundamentals of the Internal Combustion Engine by Willard Pulkrabek.

 

http://http://www.misterfixit.com/egrvalve.htm Im leaving mine on.

 

Anything else to add Flareside_Thunder, Talyn and Conanski? I would be happy to continue this discussion with you guys. I am sure it's been plenty educational for you all and I am always happy to help out the less informed.

 

I appreciate the help, but I have more questions. I have installed the resistor and have removed the EGR valve. There is a vacuum line (green) that runs over to a sensor located by the coil. What does this do and what should I do.

I'm having problems with the truck trying to start - It won't period.
I was having a "bucking" or surging problem right before I disassembled the emissions system and after reading another post, I've came to the conclusion the Idle Control Sensor might be the problem.
This project is starting to get on my nerves and I have a carburated 460 and a C6 dying to be flogged.

 

If you have removed the EGR, then the green line should be plugged, it comes from the vacuum control that controls the EGR opening.

 

The vacuum line runs over to a solenoid, not a sensor. I would get rid of the green vacuum line and get rid of the solenoid. Removing the solenoid will set a soft code...as opposed to a hard code...so no check engine light. The code has no effect on the computer's ability to run the motor, it's just there to alert whoever is reading the codes that the EGR system is not functioning. The solenoid is used by the computer to send vacuum to the EGR valve at part throttle conditions and it keeps vacuum from being sent to the EGR valve at idle, WOT and if there is an EGR code registered. There should be a red vacuum line that connects to the solenoid...block that off. You could just block off the green line and leave it and the solenoid intact if you want, but I would get rid of it just to get rid of clutter and elimitate possible vacuum leaks.