Aw crap...I just had it...where'd it go?...anyway, seems Mercedes?? has a Formula 1 V10 that has a bank angle of 72°... A real screamer! Where'd it go?...daggum...I'll be back...

I'm still fuzzy on this whole angle vs. vibration thing...course, my thinking on this lies with twin cylinder motorcycles where 90° is perfectly balanced. I guess because of what he said...

 

>OK, I don't know if this is true or not but I heard that the
>Dodge V10 fires 2 plugs at a time and has no balance shaft.
>Ford only fires 1 at a time making the ignition system very
>complicated. That's the reason some V10 chips cost more
>than the V8 versions.


No. The Dodge V10 does not fire 2 cylinders/plugs at a time.

If indeed V10 chips cost more(The guy I know who burns 'em charges the same)it's simply a matter of supply and demand.

 

hhhmm.
Pulled out my Viper motor spec and installation manual, the dogge opps dodge
V10 is definitely a 90 degree block 1-10-9-4-3-6-5-8-7-2 firing order and a bunch specs for every part of this engine don't mean anything to me but nowhere does it say anything about a Balance shaft!!
So there. Whatever that's worth

 

The block angle makes no difference for how smooth an engine runs, there are 60 and 90 degree v-6's out there and they all run smooth, granted though all of the newer engines have a balance shaft in the block. Coming from any angle you are still putting the same amount of force on the crank.

 

>The block angle makes no difference for how smooth an engine
>runs, there are 60 and 90 degree v-6's out there and they
>all run smooth, granted though all of the newer engines have
>a balance shaft in the block. Coming from any angle you are
>still putting the same amount of force on the crank.


Incredibly WRONG!!! You can offset crank pins to compensate for an un-naturally balanced motor(90* V6) or run a balance shaft.

But block angle and # of cylinders ABSOLUTELY is a factor in mechanical balance.

 

Thank you! Someone actually listens to me.

 

I listened to you. It actually has kept me up at night. No kiddin'!

Still don't know how the balance shaft works though...I'd really like to tear a V10 apart to find out...

 

I don't know for sure how the balance shaft works either, but this is my guess: Without it, the engine would shake and vibrate in a certain way. Well, I assume that the balance shaft rotates, and when it rotates, it causes vibrations of its own that counteract the vibrations of the engine, therefore they cancel each other out, and you have a smooth running engine. Like I said I don't know for sure if this is true, its just how I've pictured it. I sure wish I could tear apart a V10 too. I'm going to tech school next year, I'll be in Automotive Service course. I'll be ASE certified by NATEF when I'm done. I can't wait!

 

O.K. guys. Here it is. I know a guy who took a 8.0 Dodge V10 from a truck and built a Dragster with the motor in it. I learned alot about the motor from him.

Here is what I know.

1-10-9-4-3-6-5-8-7-2 is the correct firing order. However, it does not use a balance shaft BECAUSE one side of the motor fires 23 degrees advanced (I'm pretty sure that is the number) from the other. What this means is that the crank journals are not evenly spaced between the 2 banks, thus eliminating balance problems. That is also the reason the Dodge V10's sound like 2 inline engines running together. Essentially, that is what they are, they're just hooked to a common carnk.

He also had a hell of a time finding someone to make a custom cam for the motor because of this. The odd timing maed it kind of tough to figure out. eventually Comp Cams stepped up and made him the cam he needed.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-May-02 AT 05:14 PM (EST)]The 90 degree v10 has never made a lot of sense to me, although I am not very experienced with engine design and theory. But if I were designing a v10, I would think that a 144 degree design (firing order of 1,8,9,6,7,4,5,2,3,10) would offer the best in smoothness and efficiency. Anyone happen to know if this sort of thing has been tried in any engine design, or possible ramifications with such a design? I realize it is barely angled at all, and perhaps not even worthy of a "V" designation, but given a choice between a Mustang v8 or a porsche flat 6, you can bet which one I would choose!

If my thoughts are right about this, a 144 degree v10 would allow a piston to fire with every 72 degree turn of the crankshaft, with each piston pair sharing a main bearing on the crankshaft (5 main bearings). I know that several racing V10s are positioned at 72 degrees, but seems to make for a very deep engine block. The Dodge Viper, on the other hand, uses the odd-firing 90 degree v10 with a pushrod?? cam setup (20 valves). This makes no sense to me, unless it is to save depth on the engine block and maintain a low center of gravity. If this is the case, my 144 degree (DOHC, 40 valves) would seem even better suited. Can someone set me straight why (to my knowlege) this has not been tried?

 

I've never heard of that being tried, but man an engine with that degree would be very wide! Might be hard to fit in a smaller vehicle. Tell me, why do you think a 144 degree angle would work?

 

>But if I were designing a v10, I would think that a
>144 degree design (firing order of 1,8,9,6,7,4,5,2,3,10)
>would offer the best in smoothness and efficiency.

I'm not sure why you would think that the firing order and the degree of bank angle of the cylinder block would be related.

>I realize it is barely angled at all, and perhaps not even
>worthy of a "V" designation,

I'm lost. 144° Bank Angle would make for one WWWWIIIIDDDDEEEE engine. Worthy of a V (bold & capital) designation. It's almost a flat line!

>If my thoughts are right about this, a 144 degree v10 would
>allow a piston to fire with every 72 degree turn of the
>crankshaft,

The bank angle, once again, does not dictate firing order or even when the cycliders reach TDC. That is a "function" and design of the crank amongst other things...

>Can someone set me straight why (to my knowlege) this has not been tried?

Why what hasn't been tried? An engine with a 144° cylinder bank angle? Maybe 'cause the vehicle it would go in wouldn't fit between the lines of the road.

 

>>But if I were designing a v10, I would think that a
>>144 degree design (firing order of 1,8,9,6,7,4,5,2,3,10)
>>would offer the best in smoothness and efficiency.
>
>I'm not sure why you would think that the firing order and
>the degree of bank angle of the cylinder block would be
>related.
>
I gave the firing order merely to demonstrate what the crankshaft would look like, to show that it is feasible. The idea is that between TDC on piston 10 and 9 (a 144 degree revolution) piston 8 will fire in the middle

>>I realize it is barely angled at all, and perhaps not even
>>worthy of a "V" designation,
>
>I'm lost. 144° Bank Angle would make for one
>WWWWIIIIDDDDEEEE engine. Worthy of a V (bold &
>capital) designation. It's almost a flat line!
>
Yes, but remember, as I said before, the Porsche 911 is a flat 6. (As you can probably tell, I am more of a race enthusiast, but engine theory in general interests me).

>>If my thoughts are right about this, a 144 degree v10 would
>>allow a piston to fire with every 72 degree turn of the
>>crankshaft,
>
>The bank angle, once again, does not dictate firing order or
>even when the cycliders reach TDC. That is a "function" and
>design of the crank amongst other things...
>
>>Can someone set me straight why (to my knowlege) this has not been tried?
>
>Why what hasn't been tried? An engine with a 144°
>cylinder bank angle? Maybe 'cause the vehicle it would go in
>wouldn't fit between the lines of the road.

It is defeinitely not designed for any compact, but I have no doubt that, although some modifications may be necessary, it would fit in a modern large SUV, or in a wide-but-low sports car like the aforementioned Viper. From what I have seen of the Viper, the room already exists under the hood.