Question about breakthrough rust and repair
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Question about breakthrough rust and repair
I have done a forum search on "rust" and gone through a lot of the 28 pages of results, but I haven't found a clear answer to my question, probably because it's so basic of a question, so here goes:
my 1976 F-150 has surface spots of rust in several places, and I have gotten a lot of good tips from the posts on this site already as to how to have them dealt with. What concerns me a lot more is at the bottom of the rear side panels behind the rear tires. On both sides, I have breakthrough rust coming from the inside of the panel - not real big, smaller than a quarter.
My question is this: I will be paying someone to do the body work (I don't have the skills or time for body work), and they said they will cut out a piece of the panel, weld in a new piece of metal and finish it. Is that likely to solve the problem or is there anything else (in addition) that should be done to TOTALLY eradicate the problem?
Also, they quoted me 24 total hours (12 per panel) to do the above repair work as part of a larger restoration paint job. Does that sounds right? That sounds high.
my 1976 F-150 has surface spots of rust in several places, and I have gotten a lot of good tips from the posts on this site already as to how to have them dealt with. What concerns me a lot more is at the bottom of the rear side panels behind the rear tires. On both sides, I have breakthrough rust coming from the inside of the panel - not real big, smaller than a quarter.
My question is this: I will be paying someone to do the body work (I don't have the skills or time for body work), and they said they will cut out a piece of the panel, weld in a new piece of metal and finish it. Is that likely to solve the problem or is there anything else (in addition) that should be done to TOTALLY eradicate the problem?
Also, they quoted me 24 total hours (12 per panel) to do the above repair work as part of a larger restoration paint job. Does that sounds right? That sounds high.
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From: Northeast Nebraska
Thats a pretty common rust area. What happens is there is additional reinforcement behind that part of the 1/4 panel and dirt and what not accumulates behind there and that causes water to sit and you develope rust. Maybe have the body shop enlarge any drain holes in that area before they do the finish work and in the future remember to hose out that area to keep it clean. One trick to do is stick your garden hose in the rear stake holes of the bed and that will clean out the dirt behind the lower 1/4 panel. Actually its a real good habit to hose out all the stake holes. If POs woulda done that 30 years ago we wouldnt have as many rusty beds today. D'oh!
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From: Sugar Grove Pa
I was thinking like 73FOMO until I read further and you mention part of a larger restoration paint job, which means he's doing the whole truck I assume. So that time should be for removal of the rust, cutting in a new panel, welding up the seams, grinding them smooth, then skim coating them (personal opinion on the skimcoat, but welding seams generally leaves a less than desireable surface to paint). I'm pretty slow and that would take me about 8hrs a panel, depending on how big the patch panel was.
Summary: I'm with you it seems a bit high.
Please ensure he treats the backside of the panel, otherwise you'll be repeating this process in about 5 yrs. For panels that the backside isn't visable or reachable with a sprayer, I prime them with weldable primer.
Summary: I'm with you it seems a bit high.
Please ensure he treats the backside of the panel, otherwise you'll be repeating this process in about 5 yrs. For panels that the backside isn't visable or reachable with a sprayer, I prime them with weldable primer.
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Thanks for all the good info to take back to the body shop. A related question though - I was talking to one of my fellow Ford owners here where I work and we were talking about a possible alternate solution, but you guys would have a much better take on this. The body shop is charging 24 hours to repair the two side panels, and that doesn't count the time associated with sanding, priming, painting.
My goal for this restoration (I apologize if I am repeating myself) is to have this restoration last until I can pass this truck down to my son. So, the last thing I want is for rust to crop back up in 5 years (duh). With that goal in mind, is not one option to buy an new aftermarket outer bedside panel? The cost of just the panel (without shipping or welding, etc) for each side is about the cost of repairing the original (from one source I found). That would eliminate my fear of there being additional rust in the original panel that will get missed and present itself 5 years from now.
What are the upsides/downsides to that approach? What am I missing? I hope my question/scenario isn't too vague.
Dirk
My goal for this restoration (I apologize if I am repeating myself) is to have this restoration last until I can pass this truck down to my son. So, the last thing I want is for rust to crop back up in 5 years (duh). With that goal in mind, is not one option to buy an new aftermarket outer bedside panel? The cost of just the panel (without shipping or welding, etc) for each side is about the cost of repairing the original (from one source I found). That would eliminate my fear of there being additional rust in the original panel that will get missed and present itself 5 years from now.
What are the upsides/downsides to that approach? What am I missing? I hope my question/scenario isn't too vague.
Dirk
Last edited by dakvanslam; Jun 21, 2007 at 01:09 PM. Reason: misspelling
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From: Hartford, AL
Depends on budget. Replacing the outer panel would be very time consuming thus $$, but it definitely shouldn't rust in 5 years. Also I would beware of fitment of cheap aftermarket panels and the gauge thickness of the metal. My bed had the same problem, but had other rust issues as well. I picked up a good southern longbed with just minor surface rust for $125. I am stripping it down to bare metal and repainting.
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If you are considering replacing the whole bed side look at the other common areas that rust out to see if they are close to going bad too. Look close at the wheel well opening and behind it to see if theres any rust starting. Also the very front bottom corner of the bed sides like to rust too just like the back corners. If theres any chance that those spots are about to rust replace the whole side. Also if you have a lot of dents to fix that might help justify replacing the whole side. Its a tough call. If you replace the sides get the high quality ones. Maybe consider treating the whole underside of the bed with rust bullet or some sort of spray on bed liner.
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Ditto--look in the paint and bodywork forum. I had the same rust problems. On the side with the bigger hole I welded in a new patch. The passenger side was small so I cheated and just used filler over a mesh backing. I also had rust over the wheelwell on the drivers' side. See my gallery for pics of what I did.
The problem you described is not too difficult to fix. You may want to cut out all the rust and take it to a welding shop to see how much they'd charge to weld in a small piece of sheet metal. Then just skim it with bondo yourself. Rust over the wheelwell (at least in my case) was much more difficult and time-consuming to fix.
The problem you described is not too difficult to fix. You may want to cut out all the rust and take it to a welding shop to see how much they'd charge to weld in a small piece of sheet metal. Then just skim it with bondo yourself. Rust over the wheelwell (at least in my case) was much more difficult and time-consuming to fix.
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I would recommend aftermarket bedsides. Takes about 12 hours to replace the pair. They are pretty cheap considering how fast labor and materials add up. Plus, if they are rotting back there, the wheelwells are not too far behind. Also, I suggest using door skin epoxy to secure them around the wheelwells as opposed to welding. They distort from the heat and create tons of room for dirt to collect. I did that with mine, and then seam sealed the crap out of the well where it meets the wheelhouse. That way, when runoff gets back there, it doesn't sit in the cavity. That's only a fraction of the things I did for drainage and corrosion protection, but probably the most important. I got really carried away, but my son will be driving it to school in 10 years, and I guarantee it will still be rust free. For the record, I'm a body man, so I'm not just making things up. Best of luck to you.
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Thanks guys...this is an excellent thread and answered some of the same question I have.
My 1976 F250 4x4 is in good shape mechanically, the interior is mint, but the body is rusting and needs work. It had some minor rust repair and a base coat/clear coat paint in 1989, and has been garaged, but.....it also has done snow plowing duty.
Nevertheless...Excellent tip about the stake pockets it works great!
I am in the same boat looking at my truck and trying to figure out how much it will cost and can I afford to do it right, should I wait until I can afford to do it right, or do I cut some corners and just get it over with, etc.........?????
My 1976 F250 4x4 is in good shape mechanically, the interior is mint, but the body is rusting and needs work. It had some minor rust repair and a base coat/clear coat paint in 1989, and has been garaged, but.....it also has done snow plowing duty.
Nevertheless...Excellent tip about the stake pockets it works great!
I am in the same boat looking at my truck and trying to figure out how much it will cost and can I afford to do it right, should I wait until I can afford to do it right, or do I cut some corners and just get it over with, etc.........?????
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24 Hours of body labor at my rust repair rate (1200.00) , would easily get you a rust free box .Auto trader here in Michigan has loads of them in there adds.
The last time (out of 3) I repaired mine I put new Ford 1/4's on mine( pre lifetime sheetmetal warrantee) They need replacing now. I would'nt expect aftermarket parts to last very long , either....Unfortunately I use them every day. Even with plenty of anti corrosive primer ( acid Etch & epoxy) on both sides,, They are made to a price standard & not to a quality standard....R& I of a 1/4 panel, even in the best of circumstances , leaves alot of un coated steel..Even with weld through primer's...
Bonding is a good idea in some places , but impractical in others, & the surface has to be very clean... Rust seems to be more durable than any product I have seen in the 35 years or so that I have been doing this.....
JMHO
Rick....
The last time (out of 3) I repaired mine I put new Ford 1/4's on mine( pre lifetime sheetmetal warrantee) They need replacing now. I would'nt expect aftermarket parts to last very long , either....Unfortunately I use them every day. Even with plenty of anti corrosive primer ( acid Etch & epoxy) on both sides,, They are made to a price standard & not to a quality standard....R& I of a 1/4 panel, even in the best of circumstances , leaves alot of un coated steel..Even with weld through primer's...
Bonding is a good idea in some places , but impractical in others, & the surface has to be very clean... Rust seems to be more durable than any product I have seen in the 35 years or so that I have been doing this.....
JMHO
Rick....
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Thanks for all the replies to my post - a lot of good, informed opinions on this one. A couple of follow up questions:
considering the lifetime of replacements options, including new aftermarket panels: I live in Spartanburg, SC where they NEVER salt the roads and I plan on driving my truck <1,000 per year. DOes that change the picture for repair vs. replace at all?
Also, I crawled up under my truck last night and did a lot of looking around, and my EXTREMELY untrained eye was very surprised by how litle rust-thinned areas I could find. However, much of the side-panel surface felt rough, due to, I assume, some amount of inner-surface rust. How troubling is that?
Concerning the wheel-well rust concerns: the paint above the wheel wells on both sides is bubbling up slightly with rust (however, the last paint job my Dad got was TERRIBLE). I have picked at it and dug it out a little bit and it seems to be outer surface rust penetrating inward, but I'm not astute enough in this area to tell, and there's the panel on the inner side keeping me from checking for thinning on the flip-side. Any suggestions on how to figure out how bad a problem that is?
Dirk
considering the lifetime of replacements options, including new aftermarket panels: I live in Spartanburg, SC where they NEVER salt the roads and I plan on driving my truck <1,000 per year. DOes that change the picture for repair vs. replace at all?
Also, I crawled up under my truck last night and did a lot of looking around, and my EXTREMELY untrained eye was very surprised by how litle rust-thinned areas I could find. However, much of the side-panel surface felt rough, due to, I assume, some amount of inner-surface rust. How troubling is that?
Concerning the wheel-well rust concerns: the paint above the wheel wells on both sides is bubbling up slightly with rust (however, the last paint job my Dad got was TERRIBLE). I have picked at it and dug it out a little bit and it seems to be outer surface rust penetrating inward, but I'm not astute enough in this area to tell, and there's the panel on the inner side keeping me from checking for thinning on the flip-side. Any suggestions on how to figure out how bad a problem that is?
Dirk
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From: Colorful Colorado
hey Dirk...
you will not know the true extent of the cancer until you zap it with a wire brush or grind it down to bare metal. If it is bubbling, it is more than just surface rust.
As far as getting it fixed, I would do it if you are planning on keeping the truck. When they cut out the old metal, they will put a rust inhibitor all around the general area (back side). This will prevent new rust from appearing and stop the cancer in it's tracks.
It is very common to have the wheel opening completely shot before it starts coming through the boxside.
As far as price goes, you're going to have to pay either way. $1200 doesn't sound too bad and they will fix a lot of the dents and scratches as well. You could find a used box that is rust free, but then you have to deal with travel, transport, etc of the new box. You are will also need to paint to match and I would be suprised if the used box doesn't have 3-10 hours of repair on it. If the box is perfect, you will pay much more than $1200.00, guaranteed.
Just my $.02, spend it or leave it.
you will not know the true extent of the cancer until you zap it with a wire brush or grind it down to bare metal. If it is bubbling, it is more than just surface rust.
As far as getting it fixed, I would do it if you are planning on keeping the truck. When they cut out the old metal, they will put a rust inhibitor all around the general area (back side). This will prevent new rust from appearing and stop the cancer in it's tracks.
It is very common to have the wheel opening completely shot before it starts coming through the boxside.
As far as price goes, you're going to have to pay either way. $1200 doesn't sound too bad and they will fix a lot of the dents and scratches as well. You could find a used box that is rust free, but then you have to deal with travel, transport, etc of the new box. You are will also need to paint to match and I would be suprised if the used box doesn't have 3-10 hours of repair on it. If the box is perfect, you will pay much more than $1200.00, guaranteed.
Just my $.02, spend it or leave it.
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From: A Tree Fort in PDX
What about replacement weld in panels from like Jeffs Bronco Graveyard? I have thought about those in the past but worry if they are worth it or not. They have all the major pieces and see if you can get it done cheaper if you bring in the replacement parts? Just a thought. Like Torque1st said before check the body/paint forum.