Ethanol, some of you guys just don't get it
#16
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
I didn't realize there was more than one EPA... wouldn't that be awful!
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
and I wouldn't think of mentioning that in the alt. fuels forum, even if it does have something to do with fuels.
Hmmmmm. Looks to me like you just did.
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
Anyway, the link that utah4x4 mentioned is a good one. See the references on the bottom, some of which I'd like to look up, particularly #7. It's also known that thermal efficiency goes up more when starting with a low compression ratio than with an already high one. Meaning, you'd get more of a benefit going from 9:1 to 12:1, than from 12:1 to 15:1. So before anybody says it, you wouldn't have to run 19.5:1 to get the benefit.
Point is, I have several cars in perfectly good running order that I can spend a grand total of ZERO$$$ on and run gasoline in them for a LOT cheaper than I could convert to a new fuel. Thanks, but no thanks.
#17
Eh, political issues were already brought up, in the form of subsidies and taxes. Which, BTW, I would have thought the moderator would have done something about. At least I admit that they are political issues when I use them for my argument. Since the issue seemed open, I took advantage.
Nobody's asking you to do anything! If you like running gas, and it's working for your wallet, then by all means, go for it. I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and pop high compression pistons and bigger fuel injectors in their grocery getter, just so they can run E85. That's why they call it Ford Truck Enthusiasts, not Ford Truck Drivers. It takes a special kind of person to want to optimize something. An enthusiast. Someone who's not afraid to take risks. Be it higher performance, bigger cams, or different fuels. It's all a fun, rewarding activity. If we, as enthusiasts, want to mess with this stuff, what do you care?
My 11:1 4.0L V6 that I'm almost done building is not costing $3000. More like $1500. Will I recover that in fuel costs? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain it will get good mileage on the e85 it will be running, and will make a whole lot more power. I'm having fun, and that's what counts.
Nobody's asking you to do anything! If you like running gas, and it's working for your wallet, then by all means, go for it. I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and pop high compression pistons and bigger fuel injectors in their grocery getter, just so they can run E85. That's why they call it Ford Truck Enthusiasts, not Ford Truck Drivers. It takes a special kind of person to want to optimize something. An enthusiast. Someone who's not afraid to take risks. Be it higher performance, bigger cams, or different fuels. It's all a fun, rewarding activity. If we, as enthusiasts, want to mess with this stuff, what do you care?
My 11:1 4.0L V6 that I'm almost done building is not costing $3000. More like $1500. Will I recover that in fuel costs? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain it will get good mileage on the e85 it will be running, and will make a whole lot more power. I'm having fun, and that's what counts.
#18
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
My 11:1 4.0L V6 that I'm almost done building is not costing $3000. More like $1500. Will I recover that in fuel costs? Maybe, maybe not. But I am certain it will get good mileage on the e85 it will be running, and will make a whole lot more power. I'm having fun, and that's what counts.
#19
Now why would I want to do that? Weekends are plenty. OBTW, that $1500 includes all machine work. Like I say, it's not for everyone. If it was easy or simple, everybody would be doing it! But that said, not everyone builds a motor either. Even fewer build it up differently than stock. But if you are rebuilding, the whole high compression E85 thing adds some fun to it.
#21
So, because I like numbers, the way I see it:
1: Cost of my labor: We'll say $0.00 (I'm cheap, but I'm not easy)
2. Cost of rebuild: $1500.00
3. Potential savings of Ethanol over 100% gasoline: $1.00 per gallon
4. Potential loss of gas mileage from ethanol over gasoline: 10%
5. Final savings per gallon: $0.90
6. ROI of $1500.00: 1666 gallons of gasoline used to make break even. (BEST CASE SCENERO fuel mileage is identical, no loss for E85, break even point is 1500 gallons.
7. Average mpg for a truck, because we are in a truck forum: 13mpg
8. 1666 gallons time 13mpg: 21,658 miles
9. Most pickups aren't an only commuter; thus run about 7000 miles a year: ROI is 3 years
And I now have a vehicle that probably won't run all that well when I go to an area that doesn't have E85. Instead the highest they have is E10. But even if the fuel was available, other than for the pure fun of tinkering with your vehicle, there is practically no common sense, from a financial position, for doing such a modification.
Then again, if I believed that ethanol was indeed better for the ecology and environment, then I'd personally be will to pay a little extra to convert. But, ethanol hasn't proven to be that good for the environment. In many studies, it's possible that ethanol is as bad or worse for the environment than gasoline is. But, from a financial position, I don't believe that a 3 year ROI is worth it to me. For the fun of tinkering however: PRICELESS. Later... Mike...
1: Cost of my labor: We'll say $0.00 (I'm cheap, but I'm not easy)
2. Cost of rebuild: $1500.00
3. Potential savings of Ethanol over 100% gasoline: $1.00 per gallon
4. Potential loss of gas mileage from ethanol over gasoline: 10%
5. Final savings per gallon: $0.90
6. ROI of $1500.00: 1666 gallons of gasoline used to make break even. (BEST CASE SCENERO fuel mileage is identical, no loss for E85, break even point is 1500 gallons.
7. Average mpg for a truck, because we are in a truck forum: 13mpg
8. 1666 gallons time 13mpg: 21,658 miles
9. Most pickups aren't an only commuter; thus run about 7000 miles a year: ROI is 3 years
And I now have a vehicle that probably won't run all that well when I go to an area that doesn't have E85. Instead the highest they have is E10. But even if the fuel was available, other than for the pure fun of tinkering with your vehicle, there is practically no common sense, from a financial position, for doing such a modification.
Then again, if I believed that ethanol was indeed better for the ecology and environment, then I'd personally be will to pay a little extra to convert. But, ethanol hasn't proven to be that good for the environment. In many studies, it's possible that ethanol is as bad or worse for the environment than gasoline is. But, from a financial position, I don't believe that a 3 year ROI is worth it to me. For the fun of tinkering however: PRICELESS. Later... Mike...
#22
Originally Posted by utah4X4
"Engines optimized for alcohol fuel use, on the other hand, may yield efficiencies that exceed that of state-of-the-art diesel engines—or, about one third higher than that of FFV engines. In earlier engine research at EPA with neat methanol and ethanol [1], for example, over 40% brake thermal efficiency was achieved over a relatively broad range of loads and speeds, with peak levels reaching over 42%. Similar work has also been performed with E85 [7], yielding up to 20% fuel economy improvement over baseline gasoline engines
"
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/epa-fev-isaf-no55.pdf
"
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/presentations/epa-fev-isaf-no55.pdf
#23
Originally Posted by 76supercab2
You answered your own question.
Christcorp, you've proven my point. You'd break even relatively quickly, especially if you drive more miles a year, plus you'd have a newly rebuilt higher performing motor the whole time. That's got to be worth something.
As for finding fuel, it's E85 or nothing. Not being able to run gasoline, at all, is one downside I admit. But it's not like E85 is hard to find, especially around here. See:
http://www.e85refueling.com/ Everywhere I typically go with the Explorer, I'll be covered. For me, not a problem. For others, well, do your homework!
#24
The efficiency of the engine itself doesn't depend on fuel necessarily, like you said. Overall efficiency is the work energy out of the engine over the fuel energy into the engine.
Engine thermal efficiency depends a good deal on compression ratio, which ethanol can tolerate more of without harmful detonation. But, like you said, with the higher compression ratios come higher combustion temperatures and higher NOx emissions. I don't know that gasoline engines can get much higher on the compression ratio than they already are (at least the cars pushing 11.5 or 12:1). If less fuel is burned overall for that higher compression because the engine is operating more efficiently, what does that do for the net NOx emissions? If the increase of NOx emissions is 20% (purely hypothetical) with the higher compression ratio, but 20% less fuel and air is consumed, would the net NOx emissions remain constant? There's a trade off for everything it seems...
Engine thermal efficiency depends a good deal on compression ratio, which ethanol can tolerate more of without harmful detonation. But, like you said, with the higher compression ratios come higher combustion temperatures and higher NOx emissions. I don't know that gasoline engines can get much higher on the compression ratio than they already are (at least the cars pushing 11.5 or 12:1). If less fuel is burned overall for that higher compression because the engine is operating more efficiently, what does that do for the net NOx emissions? If the increase of NOx emissions is 20% (purely hypothetical) with the higher compression ratio, but 20% less fuel and air is consumed, would the net NOx emissions remain constant? There's a trade off for everything it seems...
#25
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
And what question would that be?
Christcorp, you've proven my point. You'd break even relatively quickly, especially if you drive more miles a year, plus you'd have a newly rebuilt higher performing motor the whole time. That's got to be worth something.
As for finding fuel, it's E85 or nothing. Not being able to run gasoline, at all, is one downside I admit. But it's not like E85 is hard to find, especially around here. See:
http://www.e85refueling.com/ Everywhere I typically go with the Explorer, I'll be covered. For me, not a problem. For others, well, do your homework!
Christcorp, you've proven my point. You'd break even relatively quickly, especially if you drive more miles a year, plus you'd have a newly rebuilt higher performing motor the whole time. That's got to be worth something.
As for finding fuel, it's E85 or nothing. Not being able to run gasoline, at all, is one downside I admit. But it's not like E85 is hard to find, especially around here. See:
http://www.e85refueling.com/ Everywhere I typically go with the Explorer, I'll be covered. For me, not a problem. For others, well, do your homework!
#26
Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
Engine thermal efficiency depends a good deal on compression ratio,
I don't know that gasoline engines can get much higher on the compression ratio than they already are (at least the cars pushing 11.5 or 12:1).
If less fuel is burned overall for that higher compression because the engine is operating more efficiently, what does that do for the net NOx emissions? If the increase of NOx emissions is 20% (purely hypothetical) with the higher compression ratio, but 20% less fuel and air is consumed, would the net NOx emissions remain constant?
I think VW is trying to get approval of a car with ammonia (NH3) injection to combat NOx -- instead of using lower combustion temperatures or catalyzers to break up NOx, that would bound it to harmless salts.
#28
Originally Posted by christcorp
I'm not sure that I could agree that a 3 year ROI is considered "relatively quickly". If you were buying a new vehicle, then getting one that is already E85 capable seems more cost effective. Having a 4-10 year old vehicle, and investing the money into it, isn't necessarily a good financial move. Especially with the negative side of ethanol to the environment and human health still being debated. But strictly from a financial standpoint, about the time there is a break even, you might be trading in the vehicle anyway. I could however see a new vehicle with it factory installed. As far as E85 being readily available, it isn't that available. Not everywhere. In my state for instance, there are only 5 stations offering E85 in the entire state. 2 of which say "Soon". Not really an option if you have to drive 100+ miles to get gas. Later... Mike....
On NOx:
Ethanol burns cooler than gasoline, as well as cools off the intake air more, so increasing the compression ratio wont have as much of a negative impact on NOx as an engine running gasoline. To what extent this helps though, I have no idea.
Last edited by rusty70f100; 06-04-2007 at 02:38 PM.
#29
Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
I know what I posted earlier certainly isn't an exact science, I just wanted to put forth something else to think about...