Looks Like old DCX might be on its last leg
#31
02-19-2007, 10:03 PM
You still have not answered my question. I will post it again.
What does Ford have to compete with the engines I listed above?
Here's the list again: (without the 500HP 6.4l Hemi)
5.7l Hemi V8................................345 HP | 375 lbs/ft
6.1l Hemi V8................................425 HP | 420 lbs/ft
4.7l V8........................................290 HP | 320 lbs/ft
8.4l Viper V10..............................600 HP | 560 lbs/ft
5.9l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......325 HP | 610 lbs/ft
6.7l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......350 HP | 650 lbs/ft
Naming cars is a completely different ball game. I can play that game too. There are Hennessey Vipers that blow the doors of the worlds top exotics including the Ford GT. There are kits that can be purchased to push the 5.7l Hemi to 500HP. We can play these games all day SMIGGS.
No it wasn't. You said nothing about the 60's and 70's until after I brought them up in my last post.
Your point was that Dodge has nothing besides the Hemi and the Viper V10. I proved you wrong, now you're trying to twist things to cover up your uneducated statements.
Namely this one:
BTW - That "stout" 4.7l V8 is only 10 ponies short of Ford's biggest V8, the 5.4l Triton. 
It should be beat to death. Supercharging in my opinion is cutting corners. I understand that Ford isn't in the best shape finacially right now, but I don't agree with people comparing a Supercharged performance car against an N/A performance car. And it's not like Ford Supercharged one car. They Supercharge all of their performance cars.
GT
Mustang GT500
Lightning
The list goes on.
The GT is almost TWICE the price of a Viper and can barely outperform it in routine tests.
See Here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_exotic_coupe_comparison/specs_price.html
The most the GT beat the Viper by was 1/2 a second. Not that impressive for a 150K exotic car that was introduced two years after the Viper SRT-10. Furthermore, the GT would be lucky to stand a chance against the refreshed 2008 Viper with an additonal 90 horses.
And about the modified Mustangs, completely irrelevant. The comparison turned into a joke when you typed "modified". Compare stock against stock or modified against modified or don't bother. You can make a Civic run circles around a Viper with enough modifications.
Dodge was in finacial trouble in the 80's. Much like Ford is now. In twenty years we can look back and say Ford dropped the ball now. Because their performance lineup is nothing to write home about.
That's all for now. I'm eagarly awaiting your list.
What does Ford have to compete with the engines I listed above?
Here's the list again: (without the 500HP 6.4l Hemi)
5.7l Hemi V8................................345 HP | 375 lbs/ft
6.1l Hemi V8................................425 HP | 420 lbs/ft
4.7l V8........................................290 HP | 320 lbs/ft
8.4l Viper V10..............................600 HP | 560 lbs/ft
5.9l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......325 HP | 610 lbs/ft
6.7l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......350 HP | 650 lbs/ft
Naming cars is a completely different ball game. I can play that game too. There are Hennessey Vipers that blow the doors of the worlds top exotics including the Ford GT. There are kits that can be purchased to push the 5.7l Hemi to 500HP. We can play these games all day SMIGGS.
My point is that Dodge very much had competition in the late 60's early 70's
Your point was that Dodge has nothing besides the Hemi and the Viper V10. I proved you wrong, now you're trying to twist things to cover up your uneducated statements.
Namely this one:
Besides the Hemi and the V10 do they make any other motors?
Oh wait, the stout 4.7!
Oh wait, the stout 4.7!
And please don't use the "Ford had to supercharge the 5.4 or 4.6 to compete" excuse. It's been beat to death as bad as the Tundra issue of late.
GT
Mustang GT500
Lightning
The list goes on.
Viper, well there was the GT and the new Shelby's, Terminator Cobra's with little modifications ( and about half the price of a Viper ) can easily compete with it. You should check out a Mustang forum, SRT Chargers are readily getting their ***es handed to them by easily modified Mustang GT's.
See Here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0401_exotic_coupe_comparison/specs_price.html
The most the GT beat the Viper by was 1/2 a second. Not that impressive for a 150K exotic car that was introduced two years after the Viper SRT-10. Furthermore, the GT would be lucky to stand a chance against the refreshed 2008 Viper with an additonal 90 horses.
And about the modified Mustangs, completely irrelevant. The comparison turned into a joke when you typed "modified". Compare stock against stock or modified against modified or don't bother. You can make a Civic run circles around a Viper with enough modifications.
A 2.2l Daytona? Come on now. Basically a K car motor with a turbo on it that couldn't keep oil in it. Like I said, Dodge dropped the ball.
That's all for now. I'm eagarly awaiting your list.
#33
02-20-2007, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
You still have not answered my question. I will post it again.
What does Ford have to compete with the engines I listed above?
Here's the list again: (without the 500HP 6.4l Hemi)
[b] 5.7l Hemi V8................................345 HP | 375 lbs/ft
What does Ford have to compete with the engines I listed above?
Here's the list again: (without the 500HP 6.4l Hemi)
[b] 5.7l Hemi V8................................345 HP | 375 lbs/ft
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
6.1l Hemi V8................................425 HP | 420 lbs/ft
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
4.7l V8........................................290 HP | 320 lbs/ft
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
8.4l Viper V10..............................600 HP | 560 lbs/ft
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
5.9l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......325 HP | 610 lbs/ft
6.7l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......350 HP | 650 lbs/ft
6.7l I-6 Cummins Turbo Diesel.......350 HP | 650 lbs/ft
...not DCX motors and the non-Ford Navistars match up very well thank-you.
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
It should be beat to death. Supercharging in my opinion is cutting corners. I understand that Ford isn't in the best shape finacially right now, but I don't agree with people comparing a Supercharged performance car against an N/A performance car. And it's not like Ford Supercharged one car. They Supercharge all of their performance cars.
GT
Mustang GT500
Lightning
GT
Mustang GT500
Lightning
Cutting corners???? Forged cranks/pistons are cutting corners??
Complaining about a factory supercharger is about as ignorant as complaining about an unfair cube advantage..........it's run what you brung.
Besides, NOTHING is easier to squeeze more HP out of than a blown motor...pulleys for S/C or waste gates for turbos.
Vipers and Z06's are in a league by themselves........no doubt.
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-20-2007 at 02:46 AM.
#34
02-20-2007, 02:59 AM
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Now that all the objective facts are out of the way. (glad we all can agree that the current "Hemi" name is a GREAT marketing tool and little else)
I have always given DCX props for being "bold" enough to put some hi-perf motors in sedans and even station wagons....to keep a hi-perf pick up for a few years when there was no competition.
And for building a Viper.
I do wish Ford was as "BOLD"......but to say they don't have the firepower available in their parts bins is ignorant.
The fact Ford doesn't use the resources/parts/motors etc...that are available is even more ignorant.
On a purely subjective note.......I was drawn to Chrysler when they had their sleek "cab forward" designs. Unfortunately, I felt they were POS FWD cars.
Now that that the drivetrains are 1st class........"I" think their cars and trucks are ugly as sin.
I also "think" if the prodution Challenger looks like the show cars, I may have a Dodge in the garage.....if they still exist!!!
I have always given DCX props for being "bold" enough to put some hi-perf motors in sedans and even station wagons....to keep a hi-perf pick up for a few years when there was no competition.
And for building a Viper.
I do wish Ford was as "BOLD"......but to say they don't have the firepower available in their parts bins is ignorant.
The fact Ford doesn't use the resources/parts/motors etc...that are available is even more ignorant.
On a purely subjective note.......I was drawn to Chrysler when they had their sleek "cab forward" designs. Unfortunately, I felt they were POS FWD cars.
Now that that the drivetrains are 1st class........"I" think their cars and trucks are ugly as sin.
I also "think" if the prodution Challenger looks like the show cars, I may have a Dodge in the garage.....if they still exist!!!
#35
02-20-2007, 09:20 AM
Musclecar_Fan,
Sorry about the delay in my response but I can't really add to what DOHC has stated! There was just a hint of sarcasm in my statement of Dodge only having the Hemi and V10 for motors.
The part I was serious about was Dodge dropping the ball and reviving the Hemi name. I particularly like your comment on how Ford supercharges all their performance cars, funny.
When did this become a game?
Dude you are taking this way to seriously.
DOHC,
I was sold on the "cab forward" design until I had to change the battery which is so conviently located in the wheel well of my wifes Stratus. First time I've ever had to jack up a car and remove a wheel to change a battery. Oh, and try to get to the fuel filter.........
Sorry about the delay in my response but I can't really add to what DOHC has stated! There was just a hint of sarcasm in my statement of Dodge only having the Hemi and V10 for motors.
The part I was serious about was Dodge dropping the ball and reviving the Hemi name. I particularly like your comment on how Ford supercharges all their performance cars, funny.
When did this become a game?
Dude you are taking this way to seriously.DOHC,
I was sold on the "cab forward" design until I had to change the battery which is so conviently located in the wheel well of my wifes Stratus. First time I've ever had to jack up a car and remove a wheel to change a battery. Oh, and try to get to the fuel filter.........
#36
02-20-2007, 09:51 AM
5.4 DOHC 4 valve normally aspirated (still available in Austaralia......aprox 400HP
DOHC 5.4 supercharged.......500-550HP STOCK......800(?) with pulley change and fuel tweaks.
I'm glad Ford had the vision to pull the 5.4 out of the F-150, modify it, then supercharge it to 500HP. I wish DCX would do that more often. SRT owners would finally have something to be proud of instead of a lame 425-450HP naturally-aspirated 6.1l Hemi.
4.6L SOHC 3 valve .....300HP normally aspirated. (which kicks the 5.7's psuedo-hemis **** Charger vs Mustang stock.
...not DCX motors and the non-Ford Navistars match up very well thank-you.
Cutting corners???? Forged cranks/pistons are cutting corners??
Complaining about a factory supercharger is about as ignorant as complaining about an unfair cube advantage..........it's run what you brung.
Complaining about a factory supercharger is about as ignorant as complaining about an unfair cube advantage..........it's run what you brung.
The factory Supercharging that Ford does is laughable. Did they use a supercharged V8 in the GT-40s of the 60's? The GTs of today would be a lot better with a 500+ HP naturally-aspirated engine. No doubt about that.
I posted a link to an articel comparing the GT against the SRT-10. The GT, despite costing twice as much, could barely stay ahead of the SRT-10 Convertible. It won't stand a chance against the new Viper.
8.4l 600HP V10?
5.4 DOHC 4 valve supercharged (see above)
8.4l V10 - Taken from Dodgeboy.net
Standout Powertrain
When SRT powertrain engineers set out to get more venom from the 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10’s powerplant, their objectives included not only increasing performance, but also complying with stringent regulatory requirements, such as federal Tier 2, Bin 5 and California’s Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV) 2 mandates.
Working with specialists from McLaren Performance Technologies and Ricardo, Inc., SRT engineers began by following the racer’s basic formula for more power: bigger displacement, more efficient breathing and higher engine speed.
The new Dodge Viper SRT10’s deep-skirted V-10 aluminum engine block was revised for a 1-millimeter larger bore, raising the displacement to 8.4 liters from 8.3 liters. With strengthened bulkheads and improved water jackets for better cooling, the block includes pressed-in iron cylinder liners and cross-bolted main bearing caps for strength and durability.
The Viper SRT10’s 8.4-liter engine breathes through new cylinder heads equipped with Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC)-shaped combustion chambers, larger valves and Variable Valve Timing (VVT). VVT electronically adjusts when the exhaust valves are open and closed according to engine speed and load, allowing the engine to “breathe” cleaner and more efficiently.
The 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 V-10’s two-piece intake manifold combines a cast aluminum lower with smooth runners for better air flow, bolted to a die-cast aluminum upper plenum. A revised air-cleaner box with a low-restriction filter sends air through a dual electronic throttle control into the intake module.
The air-fuel mixture in the cylinders is ignited by platinum-tip spark plugs fired by new individual plug coils mounted on the cylinder-head covers.
Within the cylinders, pistons are equipped with larger-diameter floating pins with bronze bushings for high-load capability. Forged powder-metal connecting rods are secured with aircraft-quality fasteners for increased fatigue strength.
Engine lubrication is managed by a larger oil pump and a swinging oil pickup adapted from Viper competition engines, to improve oil pressure in high-rpm and hard-cornering conditions.
Spent gases exit through tubular air-gap headers, which not only improve exhaust flow, but also ensure quick catalyst light-off for improved emission control. The headers’ stamped stainless-steel outer shell acts as a thermal heat shield for the individual stainless-steel runners that contribute to better flow separation and exhaust tuning.
When SRT powertrain engineers set out to get more venom from the 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10’s powerplant, their objectives included not only increasing performance, but also complying with stringent regulatory requirements, such as federal Tier 2, Bin 5 and California’s Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV) 2 mandates.
Working with specialists from McLaren Performance Technologies and Ricardo, Inc., SRT engineers began by following the racer’s basic formula for more power: bigger displacement, more efficient breathing and higher engine speed.
The new Dodge Viper SRT10’s deep-skirted V-10 aluminum engine block was revised for a 1-millimeter larger bore, raising the displacement to 8.4 liters from 8.3 liters. With strengthened bulkheads and improved water jackets for better cooling, the block includes pressed-in iron cylinder liners and cross-bolted main bearing caps for strength and durability.
The Viper SRT10’s 8.4-liter engine breathes through new cylinder heads equipped with Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC)-shaped combustion chambers, larger valves and Variable Valve Timing (VVT). VVT electronically adjusts when the exhaust valves are open and closed according to engine speed and load, allowing the engine to “breathe” cleaner and more efficiently.
The 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 V-10’s two-piece intake manifold combines a cast aluminum lower with smooth runners for better air flow, bolted to a die-cast aluminum upper plenum. A revised air-cleaner box with a low-restriction filter sends air through a dual electronic throttle control into the intake module.
The air-fuel mixture in the cylinders is ignited by platinum-tip spark plugs fired by new individual plug coils mounted on the cylinder-head covers.
Within the cylinders, pistons are equipped with larger-diameter floating pins with bronze bushings for high-load capability. Forged powder-metal connecting rods are secured with aircraft-quality fasteners for increased fatigue strength.
Engine lubrication is managed by a larger oil pump and a swinging oil pickup adapted from Viper competition engines, to improve oil pressure in high-rpm and hard-cornering conditions.
Spent gases exit through tubular air-gap headers, which not only improve exhaust flow, but also ensure quick catalyst light-off for improved emission control. The headers’ stamped stainless-steel outer shell acts as a thermal heat shield for the individual stainless-steel runners that contribute to better flow separation and exhaust tuning.
Forced Induction = Lame
Ford's lineup of performance engines will continue to trail GM and DCX until they can bring something impressive to the table that doesn't need forced induction to compete.
Of course this is all just my opinion.
What will Ford's answer be to the 6.4l Hemi making 500HP?
Last edited by Musclecar_Fan; 02-20-2007 at 10:24 AM.
#37
02-20-2007, 10:30 AM
You are really starting to sound like a Camaro/Firebird LS1 owner when the Terminator Cobra's came out.
" No fair, Ford had to supercharge their motors to keep up...whaaaaa"
Who cares, at least they stepped up to the plate and did something. Besides the V10 what motor besides the new "Hemi" was Dodge putting in any sort of performance vehicle.
[QUOTE]Supercharged, tweaked, modified, etc. How does it stack up against the 6.1 without all the extras?
I'm glad Ford had the vision to pull the 5.4 out of the F-150, modify it, then supercharge it to 500HP. I wish DCX would do that more often. SRT owners would finally have something to be proud of instead of a lame 425-450HP naturally-aspirated 6.1l Hemi.[QUOTE]
I'm glad too, what exactly is Dodge doing right now with the Hemi? Same thing Ford is doing with their supercharged motors. They are proven performers even if they are supercharged. ( the shame of it all! ) At least Ford is keeping with it's performance heritage and putting these motors into 2 door vehicles. The same can't be said for Dodge. Those hemi powered station wagons ( Magnum ) are sure sweet! What about the Charger, just like Dodge to take a name with a strong performance history and turn it into a 4 door, and guess what, you can get it with a Hemi!
[QUOTE]I'm glad you think that a Supercharged V8 stands up to the 8.4l Viper V10. I'd like to see a Viper owner reaction if DCX decided to cancle the V10 and start equiping Vipers with Supercharged 5.7l Hemis. [QUOTE]
Good one! What if Dodge did this and what if Dodge did that..... Nowhere in any of the responses to your posts are we saying " if Ford did this or Ford did that " why would we? Ford has already done it.
" No fair, Ford had to supercharge their motors to keep up...whaaaaa"
Who cares, at least they stepped up to the plate and did something. Besides the V10 what motor besides the new "Hemi" was Dodge putting in any sort of performance vehicle.
[QUOTE]Supercharged, tweaked, modified, etc. How does it stack up against the 6.1 without all the extras?
I'm glad Ford had the vision to pull the 5.4 out of the F-150, modify it, then supercharge it to 500HP. I wish DCX would do that more often. SRT owners would finally have something to be proud of instead of a lame 425-450HP naturally-aspirated 6.1l Hemi.
[QUOTE]I'm glad too, what exactly is Dodge doing right now with the Hemi? Same thing Ford is doing with their supercharged motors. They are proven performers even if they are supercharged. ( the shame of it all! ) At least Ford is keeping with it's performance heritage and putting these motors into 2 door vehicles. The same can't be said for Dodge. Those hemi powered station wagons ( Magnum ) are sure sweet!
What about the Charger, just like Dodge to take a name with a strong performance history and turn it into a 4 door, and guess what, you can get it with a Hemi! [QUOTE]I'm glad you think that a Supercharged V8 stands up to the 8.4l Viper V10. I'd like to see a Viper owner reaction if DCX decided to cancle the V10 and start equiping Vipers with Supercharged 5.7l Hemis. [QUOTE]
Good one! What if Dodge did this and what if Dodge did that..... Nowhere in any of the responses to your posts are we saying " if Ford did this or Ford did that " why would we? Ford has already done it.
Last edited by SMIGGS; 02-20-2007 at 10:53 AM.
#38
02-20-2007, 03:23 PM
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WOW!!!!.............Considering the REAL hemi is a poor,
inefficient street motor and needs a GIANT supercharger
to make the huge chamber and valves work....superchargers are lame.
Considering little 2L econocars can kick the CRAP out of most of the big bad DCX psuedo-hemis out there..........
yea, turbos are lame. (Evo and STI)
F-1...............lame.....pesky turbos again.
The Cummins some people are so proud of???..........
dang that forced induction!!! So lame that Cummins doesn't
just build a 12 litre N/A diesel, it would be so much "less-lame"
than a turbo-diesel.
Both Mercedes and BMW offer turbo cars..............lame!!!
Even the great DCX turboed the POS Neon.....why didn't they just stick a "hemi" roid in it???
Yup, opinions are like bung holes.....everyone has one,
just some stink more than others.
inefficient street motor and needs a GIANT supercharger
to make the huge chamber and valves work....superchargers are lame.
Considering little 2L econocars can kick the CRAP out of most of the big bad DCX psuedo-hemis out there..........
yea, turbos are lame. (Evo and STI)
F-1...............lame.....pesky turbos again.
The Cummins some people are so proud of???..........
dang that forced induction!!! So lame that Cummins doesn't
just build a 12 litre N/A diesel, it would be so much "less-lame"
than a turbo-diesel.
Both Mercedes and BMW offer turbo cars..............lame!!!
Even the great DCX turboed the POS Neon.....why didn't they just stick a "hemi" roid in it???
Yup, opinions are like bung holes.....everyone has one,
just some stink more than others.
#39
02-20-2007, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by DOHCmarauder
Even the great DCX turboed the POS Neon.....why didn't they just stick a "hemi" roid in it???
To quote the Dodge truck commercials with the 2 rednecks.....swwwwweeeeeetttt.
#40
02-21-2007, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
Forced Induction = Lame
Superchargers/turbochargers aren't cheating, it is effective use of your resources. I have seen a 1.3l rotary engine dyno with over 1000hp at the rear wheels with just 42psi... but then again I assume thats cheating too?
Originally Posted by DOHCmaruader
F-1...............lame.....pesky turbos again.
WHY?
Too much power
When the Beemers in particular were making 1500hp out of thier "lame" 1.5l 4 bangers in qualifying, and watching Gerhard Berger ignite his Pirelli's mid corner as the engine came "on boost". (drools)
DOHC - if you are interested in the F-1 cars, check out a site called gurneyflap.com
#41
02-21-2007, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BigF350
No doubt it is when you aren't running it
Superchargers/turbochargers aren't cheating, it is effective use of your resources. I have seen a 1.3l rotary engine dyno with over 1000hp at the rear wheels with just 42psi... but then again I assume thats cheating too?
F-1 hasn't run turbo's for pretty much exactly 20 years.
WHY?
Too much power
When the Beemers in particular were making 1500hp out of thier "lame" 1.5l 4 bangers in qualifying, and watching Gerhard Berger ignite his Pirelli's mid corner as the engine came "on boost". (drools)
DOHC - if you are interested in the F-1 cars, check out a site called gurneyflap.com
Superchargers/turbochargers aren't cheating, it is effective use of your resources. I have seen a 1.3l rotary engine dyno with over 1000hp at the rear wheels with just 42psi... but then again I assume thats cheating too?
F-1 hasn't run turbo's for pretty much exactly 20 years.
WHY?
Too much power
When the Beemers in particular were making 1500hp out of thier "lame" 1.5l 4 bangers in qualifying, and watching Gerhard Berger ignite his Pirelli's mid corner as the engine came "on boost". (drools)
DOHC - if you are interested in the F-1 cars, check out a site called gurneyflap.com
Thanks for the correction on F1...........what's the class(es) of cars where the Audis clean up?? GTP???
I know they have turbos.......they allow the 50% larger diesel double the boost!!!....................but they're all lame too!!!
#43
02-21-2007, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by BigF350
I assume you are taking about Le Man???
The R10's (and the "lame" gas powered turbocharged R8's before it)
The R10's (and the "lame" gas powered turbocharged R8's before it)
It won LeMans.....LMP1 class(??)
I guess in the States it's the "prototype" class
(probably what the "P" stands for....Dohhhh)
class where the lame turbo won at Sebring,
Laguna Seca, Elkhart Lake etc....
[edit.....I see what you're saying,
it's called the LeMans series here also]
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 02-21-2007 at 11:22 PM.
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