Coolant/water
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Senior User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Wilton, Ca
Coolant/water
Correct me if I'm wrong.
It is my understanding that straight water will keep your engine running cooler then coolant water mix, But will cause internal rust and is not good on the waterpump.
My 77 F250 351M was running a lot warmer pulling a steep grade with my 5th wheel in the middle of July then I would like.
My question is. If I was to run just water with NO coolant for that week then after put the coolant mix back in. Would it make a big difference and would it hurt anything.
This goes with my post "Temp Gauge" Didn't know to add to post or start new.
Thanks Don
It is my understanding that straight water will keep your engine running cooler then coolant water mix, But will cause internal rust and is not good on the waterpump.
My 77 F250 351M was running a lot warmer pulling a steep grade with my 5th wheel in the middle of July then I would like.
My question is. If I was to run just water with NO coolant for that week then after put the coolant mix back in. Would it make a big difference and would it hurt anything.
This goes with my post "Temp Gauge" Didn't know to add to post or start new.
Thanks Don
Last edited by Ultramagdan; Jan 31, 2007 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Requested that it be moved.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jul 2006
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Water does do a better job of transfering heat than propylene glycol. Out here in CA we see few times where freezing is a big issue, why not try less anti-freeze and more water to get her cooled down, or try much less ant-freeze, and "red-line water wetter" or something similar. These will provide you with the better cooling properties of water over anti-freeze, and still take care of the inside against corrosion. Beats changing out the coolant every year. Kind of a pain I would guess.
Are you sure the gauge is accurate? Maybe it is telling you little lies, and the engine is happy where it is at. Maybe?
Are you sure the gauge is accurate? Maybe it is telling you little lies, and the engine is happy where it is at. Maybe?
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
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From: Eustis FL
Straight water will NOT cool better than water/coolant mixed.
Boiling point of straight water: 100 degrees C, 212 F
Boiling point of water/coolant: 106 degrees C, 223 F (mixed 50/50)
Boiling point of water/coolant: 113 degrees C, 235 F (70/30)
Also, freezing points are extended to well below each liquid's individual freezing point:
Water freezes at: 0 degrees C, 32 F
water/coolant freezes at -37C, -35 F (50/50)
water/coolant freezes at -55C, -67 F (70/30)
So of course, a 70/30 coolant/water mix is ideal in all conditions. Don't fear the relatively 'low' boiling points, as your engine has something else that further extends the boiling point: PRESSURE. It goes a long way in a cooling system to increase your cooling efficiency. And yes, rust inhibitors/anticorrosion properties work well for iron or aluminum system components as well.
Now, it was a high school physics class that taught me this stuff in an experiment, but you can also look it up online for further proof. Go somewhere like 'howstuffworks.com' . They seem to have a lot of automotive related info there.
Boiling point of straight water: 100 degrees C, 212 F
Boiling point of water/coolant: 106 degrees C, 223 F (mixed 50/50)
Boiling point of water/coolant: 113 degrees C, 235 F (70/30)
Also, freezing points are extended to well below each liquid's individual freezing point:
Water freezes at: 0 degrees C, 32 F
water/coolant freezes at -37C, -35 F (50/50)
water/coolant freezes at -55C, -67 F (70/30)
So of course, a 70/30 coolant/water mix is ideal in all conditions. Don't fear the relatively 'low' boiling points, as your engine has something else that further extends the boiling point: PRESSURE. It goes a long way in a cooling system to increase your cooling efficiency. And yes, rust inhibitors/anticorrosion properties work well for iron or aluminum system components as well.
Now, it was a high school physics class that taught me this stuff in an experiment, but you can also look it up online for further proof. Go somewhere like 'howstuffworks.com' . They seem to have a lot of automotive related info there.
Senior User
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Western Kentucky
In a past life, I recycled antifreeze for a living. Water boils at 212 F and a 50/50 mix of H2O and ethylene glycol boils at 265 F.
The boiling point of both increases when under pressure as in a properly working cooling system
Ethylene glycol has better cooling properties than propylene glycol. Don't buy into the "environmentaly safe" Sierra brand propylene glycol antifreeze. The contaminants come from then engine when drained. One comes out of an engine just as dirty as the other.
Also, it may only take 4 oz. of ethylene glycol to kill a medium size dog but it only takes 7 oz. of propylene glycol to do the same to a dog. P G is also more expensive.
That's my $0.02 worth.
The boiling point of both increases when under pressure as in a properly working cooling system
Ethylene glycol has better cooling properties than propylene glycol. Don't buy into the "environmentaly safe" Sierra brand propylene glycol antifreeze. The contaminants come from then engine when drained. One comes out of an engine just as dirty as the other.
Also, it may only take 4 oz. of ethylene glycol to kill a medium size dog but it only takes 7 oz. of propylene glycol to do the same to a dog. P G is also more expensive.
That's my $0.02 worth.
More Turbo
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 606
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From: Colstrip, MT
At a 70/30 mix of ethylene glycol, you have actually decreased the freeze point of the solution. The maximum mix giving the maximum freeze point is a 62/38 mixture, if you can measure it that accurately. 100% glycol freezes at -10 deg F, or about -23.3 deg C.
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Senior User
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From: Wilton, Ca
So what you are saying is stay with the 50/50.This is what I have ran since the engine was rebuilt and new radiator.
Thanks for your input Don
Thanks for your input Don
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Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Eustis FL
Like I said, look it up and try to prove me wrong.
50/50 is NOT better that 70/30, period. But, it will work in moderate climates.
And fatherdoug, if you are living in the arctic circle, you may want to spend the extra time measuring out the exact 62/38 mixure, since it will be cold year round, and not just a little cold. watch you don't freeze your hands doing it. lol We tend to keep things simple and go with year round, all-purpose 70/30 mixtures. Works in very cold Canada weather, and in very hot Arizona and Florida weather. (I proved it!)
50/50 is NOT better that 70/30, period. But, it will work in moderate climates.
And fatherdoug, if you are living in the arctic circle, you may want to spend the extra time measuring out the exact 62/38 mixure, since it will be cold year round, and not just a little cold. watch you don't freeze your hands doing it. lol We tend to keep things simple and go with year round, all-purpose 70/30 mixtures. Works in very cold Canada weather, and in very hot Arizona and Florida weather. (I proved it!)
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
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Pure water cools the best (heat transfer) so you want to run just the minimum amount of AF that you can. The recommended refill 50/50 mix for corrosion and lubrication properties is really that minimum tho given some tolerance (a 30/70 ratio will really work). A 50/50 mix will not cool as well as pure water or any lesser mix ratios. 50/50 mixes are adequate for cooling if it provides the required freeze protection you need in your area. Using a 60/40 or higher mix may be necessary in some climates for freeze protection but cooling capability is again lost over the 50/50 mix. With a 70/30 mix the cooling capacity is again lost over the 60/40 mix and freeze properties have maxed out.
I have seen charts for Ford and the OEM's have specific mixes for different regions. I can't recall if they use lower than 50/50 mixes but they can also precisely control the mixture and save big bucks each year on material cost just by shifting the ratio a point or two.
The 50/50 mix seems to have become a generic standard and is readily available in Quick Shops etc all over for a quick addition if needed.
I have seen charts for Ford and the OEM's have specific mixes for different regions. I can't recall if they use lower than 50/50 mixes but they can also precisely control the mixture and save big bucks each year on material cost just by shifting the ratio a point or two.
The 50/50 mix seems to have become a generic standard and is readily available in Quick Shops etc all over for a quick addition if needed.
Last edited by Torque1st; Feb 2, 2007 at 03:55 AM.
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
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Here is some info I have collected from reliable sources, manuals, coolant containers, etc over the years with my own calculations and conversions etc. I keep this info on file. It is not perfect and may not display properly. Users may have to copy it to a text processor like notepad and adjust spacing and tab stops etc. Some of this may be available online if you need to check figures after spacing adjustments.
Water has a higher specific heat than an ethylene glycol or propylene glycol coolant mix. Therefore, it provides the best heat transfer performance in a cooling system. Glycol solutions are used to raise the
boiling point (especially important for water pockets around the exhaust valves), provide anti-freeze protection, corrosion inhibitors to protect the metals in the cooling system, and a lubricant for the water pump. In terms of the relative heat transfer performance of ethylene glycol versus propylene glycol coolant bases, they are pretty much equal when mixed according to the manufacturers’ replacement recommendations, usually a 50/50 water to glycol mix. Ethylene glycol coolant solutions provide slightly higher heat transfer performance over propylene glycol solutions at low coolant flow rates.
Therefore:
- For maximum heat transfer performance in non-freezing climates (or racing) use water as a coolant with an additive to provide a corrosion inhibitor and water pump lubricant.
- For street vehicles use 30-50% ethylene glycol depending on lowest expected temperature. >30% will provided the needed corrosion protection and water pump lubrication.
-If a cooling system is marginal, only overheating on the hottest of days or while towing, increasing the proportion of water in the coolant or running straight water with an additive during the summer may solve the problem. Remember to run a standard 50/50 solution during the rest of the year.
- For extreme winter service use a 50-70% ethylene glycol coolant solution. Remember that the lower percentage of water will reduce the cooling capacity during warm weather.
Code:
Cooling System Performance: ======================== For 50% EG by WEIGHT, boiling points at different pressures PSIG DEG F 0 224 1 228 2 231 3 234 4 237 5 240 6 243 8 248 10 253 12 258 14 262 16 266 18 270 20 274 22 277 24 280 25 282 Glycol % Effect by Volume: ----------------------------------------- glycol % Boiling Pt. Boiling Pt. by vol. deg. C deg. F ------------------------------------------- 0 100 212 10 101 213.8 20 102 215.6 30 104 219.2 40 106 222.8 50 108 226.4 Pressure Effect (H2O only) ------------------------------------------ Pressure Cap Pressure Absolute Boiling Pt. Gauge Boiling Pt. PSI deg. C PSI deg. F ---------------------------------------------------------- 14.7 100 0 212 17.8 107 3.1 224.6 22.1 116 7.4 240.8 26 124 11.3 255.2 30 132 15.3 269.6 35 142 20.3 287.6 39.4 152 24.7 305.6 COOLING SYSTEM CAPACITY CHART ------------------------------------------------------------ For best results in protecting against cooling system parts deterioration, mix antifreeze with distilled water. Cooling System QUARTS OF ANTIFREEZE REQUIRED Capacity (QTS.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- 6 -34° 7 -17° 8 -7 -34° 9 0 -21° 10 4 -12 -34° 11 8 -6 -23° 12 10 0 -15 -34° 13 3 -9 -25° 14 6 -5 -17 -34° 15 8 0 -12 -26° 16 10 2 -7 -19 -34° 17 5 -4 -14 -27° 18 7 0 -10 -21 -34° 19 9 2 -7 -16 -28° 20 10 4 -3 -12 -22 -34° ---------------------------------------------------------- Cooling System 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Capacity (QTS.) QUARTS OF ANTIFREEZE REQUIRED Antifreeze Chart by VOLUME Percent Coolant Boiling Point@ 0 psi Freezing Point ------------------------------------------------------------ 10 215 +25 20 217 +16 30 219 +4 40 222 -12 50 226 -34 60 231 -62 70 238 -84 80 250 -57 90 272 -33 100 330 -9
boiling point (especially important for water pockets around the exhaust valves), provide anti-freeze protection, corrosion inhibitors to protect the metals in the cooling system, and a lubricant for the water pump. In terms of the relative heat transfer performance of ethylene glycol versus propylene glycol coolant bases, they are pretty much equal when mixed according to the manufacturers’ replacement recommendations, usually a 50/50 water to glycol mix. Ethylene glycol coolant solutions provide slightly higher heat transfer performance over propylene glycol solutions at low coolant flow rates.
Therefore:
- For maximum heat transfer performance in non-freezing climates (or racing) use water as a coolant with an additive to provide a corrosion inhibitor and water pump lubricant.
- For street vehicles use 30-50% ethylene glycol depending on lowest expected temperature. >30% will provided the needed corrosion protection and water pump lubrication.
-If a cooling system is marginal, only overheating on the hottest of days or while towing, increasing the proportion of water in the coolant or running straight water with an additive during the summer may solve the problem. Remember to run a standard 50/50 solution during the rest of the year.
- For extreme winter service use a 50-70% ethylene glycol coolant solution. Remember that the lower percentage of water will reduce the cooling capacity during warm weather.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 3
From: Eustis FL
'Harder for the waterpump to circulate the mixture'???
Hmmm, my 1978 F150 351M with 540,000 miles on the original engine didn't seem to complain about the 70/30 mix, as I replaced the original waterpump at 532,000 miles...
Looks like some of y'all are gonna run straight water, no matter what... My feeling is; Go right ahead! I'll keep doing what works for me, and what makes the most sense to me. I think next time someone wants some help, I will just clam up and let the rest of you answer with 15 different answers, so the guy will be worse off than before he asked. Thank you, and good night!
Hmmm, my 1978 F150 351M with 540,000 miles on the original engine didn't seem to complain about the 70/30 mix, as I replaced the original waterpump at 532,000 miles...
Looks like some of y'all are gonna run straight water, no matter what... My feeling is; Go right ahead! I'll keep doing what works for me, and what makes the most sense to me. I think next time someone wants some help, I will just clam up and let the rest of you answer with 15 different answers, so the guy will be worse off than before he asked. Thank you, and good night!