V10 Performance...where to start??
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
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From: Long Island USA
Originally Posted by Fredvon4
I especially like the guys on the TV trucks show who do this in an 1/2 hour segment...too funny... this is NOT one of the easy jobs there is on a drive train...
I think it went to a commercial, and it was back together. Pretty nifty...
I need to get some of them commercials too, they must come in handy.
When I said $800, that was including parts, by the way...
Not sure how much a warranty is worth to you
But you will pay extra for that.
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From: Idaho
Krewat - I want to make sure I understand. IfI buy the gears and have them installed, there is no calibration change for the speedometer? How could that be, the truck would automatically somehow figure it out? I mean, if it does, that's a good deal for me, wouldnt have to buy a tuner (yet) but I just don't see how the truck would automatically compensate for the different gear set. Could you explain a bit as a somewhat a noob here
And I'm still trying to find the definitive answer on 10.25's into 10.50 cases.
After reading all these posts, I'm going with the 4.30 gear swap first. After that, a cat back exhaust (probably gibson), cold air intake (AEM), and a tuner/chip(Undecided, subject of more posts I'm sure). I have a call down to the local drive shop tomorrow to see what he charges for front and rear ring/pintion installs. Realisitcally, what would I be looking at, a 40-50 hp over stock at the rear wheels?
Now, do any of these tuners allow provisions for modes like open exhaust or the air intake kits?
And I'm still trying to find the definitive answer on 10.25's into 10.50 cases.
After reading all these posts, I'm going with the 4.30 gear swap first. After that, a cat back exhaust (probably gibson), cold air intake (AEM), and a tuner/chip(Undecided, subject of more posts I'm sure). I have a call down to the local drive shop tomorrow to see what he charges for front and rear ring/pintion installs. Realisitcally, what would I be looking at, a 40-50 hp over stock at the rear wheels?
Now, do any of these tuners allow provisions for modes like open exhaust or the air intake kits?
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: central Louisiana
Originally Posted by misteramx
Krewat - I want to make sure I understand. IfI buy the gears and have them installed, there is no calibration change for the speedometer? How could that be, the truck would automatically somehow figure it out? I mean, if it does, that's a good deal for me, wouldnt have to buy a tuner (yet) but I just don't see how the truck would automatically compensate for the different gear set. Could you explain a bit as a somewhat a noob here
And I'm still trying to find the definitive answer on 10.25's into 10.50 cases.
After reading all these posts, I'm going with the 4.30 gear swap first. After that, a cat back exhaust (probably gibson), cold air intake (AEM), and a tuner/chip(Undecided, subject of more posts I'm sure). I have a call down to the local drive shop tomorrow to see what he charges for front and rear ring/pintion installs. Realisitcally, what would I be looking at, a 40-50 hp over stock at the rear wheels?
Now, do any of these tuners allow provisions for modes like open exhaust or the air intake kits?
And I'm still trying to find the definitive answer on 10.25's into 10.50 cases.
After reading all these posts, I'm going with the 4.30 gear swap first. After that, a cat back exhaust (probably gibson), cold air intake (AEM), and a tuner/chip(Undecided, subject of more posts I'm sure). I have a call down to the local drive shop tomorrow to see what he charges for front and rear ring/pintion installs. Realisitcally, what would I be looking at, a 40-50 hp over stock at the rear wheels?
Now, do any of these tuners allow provisions for modes like open exhaust or the air intake kits?
second question: 10.5 and 10.25 RING GEARS are the same, what they changed was the pinion spline length. the newer truck (10.5's) have a longer yolk, the older style trucks (pre 93 i belive) have a shorter yolk. when you order a set of gears, all you have to do is tell them what year your truck is, they should have the rest on file.
as for chips/programmers.........the best results i hear are from SCTflash.com! there programmers and PCM chips. they have a 5 position/4 program chip that i've heard great things about! i HAD a hypertech, and the best thing i noticed was better trans shifting, and better towing performance. normal driving i didn't notice much difference!
hope that helps alittle more
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
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I suggest the gear change first before you get all dressed up to dump big bucks on a bunch of questionable bolt on mods...
next would be good headers if you can stand the increase in cabin noise or a well done two to one collector or "Y" pipe is all the exhaust needs to free up a few ponies... do not expect more then 7~9 extra HP here either unles you engineer a well designed true dual system with a cross over equalizer "X" or "H" pipe
I don't give a damn what any one here says, the air intake kits are all over priced and have the lowest bang for the buck impact...not one of them does anything for normal cruise RPM they all give only a slight 5~7 increase in HP around 4600rpm...The stock system is NOT restrictive in any way all the restrictions in the intake stream are in the heads and valves and cams...
The only tuners that yield any appreciable HP all require higher octane fuel...yes there are multi program tuners that have a 87 RON mode... and you will find your self with a easy $1500~$2500 in mods but only using the lower cost fuel so that little item tends to be a big waste of cash too ...most of the time
Biggest single bang for the buck is a gear change.. 99% of all truck owners are so blown away by the new found acceleration a lower ratio provides that they rarely consider dumping more cash in a now damned fast truck!
The Gear change alone does NOT effect the speedometer becaus the sensor is measuring axle rotation speeds not drive shaft rotation speeds...you must re-calibrate for taller or shorter tires for these trucks and it is fairly easy for the Ford Tech to re-program the speedo for a modest tire size change...you only need to tell him the new tire size REVs per mile to re-calibrate.
The PCM will need to have memory dumped for the new gears...this is simply leaving the battery disconnected for a few min to a few hours... I leave it off over night when I do it.. on the next start up the PCM will re calibrate the fuel map to the new rpm vs. MPH and loads based on your driving habits
next would be good headers if you can stand the increase in cabin noise or a well done two to one collector or "Y" pipe is all the exhaust needs to free up a few ponies... do not expect more then 7~9 extra HP here either unles you engineer a well designed true dual system with a cross over equalizer "X" or "H" pipe
I don't give a damn what any one here says, the air intake kits are all over priced and have the lowest bang for the buck impact...not one of them does anything for normal cruise RPM they all give only a slight 5~7 increase in HP around 4600rpm...The stock system is NOT restrictive in any way all the restrictions in the intake stream are in the heads and valves and cams...
The only tuners that yield any appreciable HP all require higher octane fuel...yes there are multi program tuners that have a 87 RON mode... and you will find your self with a easy $1500~$2500 in mods but only using the lower cost fuel so that little item tends to be a big waste of cash too ...most of the time
Biggest single bang for the buck is a gear change.. 99% of all truck owners are so blown away by the new found acceleration a lower ratio provides that they rarely consider dumping more cash in a now damned fast truck!
The Gear change alone does NOT effect the speedometer becaus the sensor is measuring axle rotation speeds not drive shaft rotation speeds...you must re-calibrate for taller or shorter tires for these trucks and it is fairly easy for the Ford Tech to re-program the speedo for a modest tire size change...you only need to tell him the new tire size REVs per mile to re-calibrate.
The PCM will need to have memory dumped for the new gears...this is simply leaving the battery disconnected for a few min to a few hours... I leave it off over night when I do it.. on the next start up the PCM will re calibrate the fuel map to the new rpm vs. MPH and loads based on your driving habits
Last edited by Fredvon4; Jan 16, 2007 at 08:54 PM.
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From: Idaho
Excellent info guys. Okay, I'm good to go on the gears then, since I now know that the speed is taken from the wheel, not the axle. Remember the days when the speedometer went into the tail shaft of the transmission. Sigh. But if I just dump the PCM by disconnecting the battery, I think even I can manage that.
I'm hoping to be one of those guys that finds a gear change alone is worth it. But if not, I don't mind running 92 fuel (that's what it is up here, 92, not 93, must be an Idaho thing). Like I said, I already run 89 the majority of the time to keep from pinging so 92 would be no big thing for me, if the performance was commensurate with the price.
I will have to go with Fredvon on the intake thing, I have been looking through truck articles where the intakes are only making a max of 10 hp, and most of them make just over stock. I haven't found any definitive info on how much an exhaust adds, I'm guess more than a intake alone. But, treating the truck like a system, the exhaust and the intake could compliment each other. Real dyno numbers would help though. Same for a tuner. It would be great for one of these magazines to do a bolt on buildup, with the numbers backed by a chassis dyno. Start with the intake (test a few different ones). Add a cat back (again, test a few), and finish with a chip or tuner. That would give a great idea to the average joe what kind of power he'd be looking at.
Okay, still surfing the web for 4.30's front and rear, then call the driveline shop and see how much he's gonna whack me for!
I'm hoping to be one of those guys that finds a gear change alone is worth it. But if not, I don't mind running 92 fuel (that's what it is up here, 92, not 93, must be an Idaho thing). Like I said, I already run 89 the majority of the time to keep from pinging so 92 would be no big thing for me, if the performance was commensurate with the price.
I will have to go with Fredvon on the intake thing, I have been looking through truck articles where the intakes are only making a max of 10 hp, and most of them make just over stock. I haven't found any definitive info on how much an exhaust adds, I'm guess more than a intake alone. But, treating the truck like a system, the exhaust and the intake could compliment each other. Real dyno numbers would help though. Same for a tuner. It would be great for one of these magazines to do a bolt on buildup, with the numbers backed by a chassis dyno. Start with the intake (test a few different ones). Add a cat back (again, test a few), and finish with a chip or tuner. That would give a great idea to the average joe what kind of power he'd be looking at.
Okay, still surfing the web for 4.30's front and rear, then call the driveline shop and see how much he's gonna whack me for!
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jan 2002
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misteramx
Let me clear up a few things for you and other following the thread.
The speedometer reading is taken off the differential carrier by a tone ring that is directly bolted to the carrier at the back of the big ring gear. This is counting pulses of the rotation of the AXLE not the drive shaft. Changing gear ratios does not effect these pulses because it does not care how many pinion gear rotations it takes to make the tone ring/ring gear turn one rotation. If you change the Tire diameter to smaller then there are more axle/tone ring/ring gear rotations per mile...opposit effect if you put on larger diameter tires...now there are less rotations per mile
Because these PCMs have a "learning" strategy... they do modify the base default program as the vehicle is put through the first three or four "driving cycles". A "driving cycle" is where the motor is started, full operating temp, speeds up to and over 30 MPH with a mix of Full stops (like at a stop light) then back to over 30MPH 3 or 4 times before motor shut down. There is a section in the owners manual that describes preparation for IM testing (emissions test) that must be followed right after a battery disconnect to set all the systems to pass a IM test. This is the abbreviated prep cycle but gives a better description of the method to reset the PCM maps.
The 2v V10 has been put on a dyno many times with all these various modifications... first thing to remember is a dyno is set to test WOT power curves and this info can be helpful to see if any mod or series of mods increased power and where that power increase came in. The V10 is already a well engineered machine and the factory has it set for a LOT of bottom end torque... Remember it is a TRUCK designed to get a HEAVY load moving from a stop. The rod lengths, head volumes, intake plenum, valve timing and lift ignition curve and injector curve are all OPTIMIZED for bottom end low rpm power.... That said... all the aftermarket bolt on power adders are designed to increase only those areas where they bolt on... intake plumbing and exhaust plumbing...most of the time these devices will add MAX RPM power but about 90% of the time it is at the expense of bottom end grunt. For racing or a lot of time in low gears hauling a load up and over a mountain pass there is quite a bit that can be done to improve performance...usualy you loose fuel efficiency and most of the time you decrease power in the 1900-2250 RPM range...if you spend a lot of time on frewways at cruising speeds of 65~75MPH these mods can hurt MPG effeciancy because there is less NET HP in this rpm range
It is possible to create a COMPLIMENTARY Set of modifications to slightly increase the bottom end and modestly increase the TOP end for an all around net gain and actually increase the MPG.
A gear change to 4.10, 4.30 or 4.88 along with a tire diameter change to get the 70MPH cruise RPM set to around 2100 is desirable.
On the 99-2004 2v V10s there are a few exhaust mods that yield around 9~17 HP still low in the power band to be usable for non racing use. Next logical mod is a tuner to tweak the fuel and ignition map... but a serious study is needed to get the max out of her with out killing the bottom end power curve...very possible to do but requires some compromises and a lot of dyno time. The final mod that works is a new rebuild of the 4R100 trany with shift point mods and better valves
Notice I stay away from any mention of air box, filter, MAF, spacers, throttle bodies, and plumbing... this is because there are no real gains here UNLESS you are willing to retune the flow characteristics of the heads, rework the valves and have new Cam profiles welded on and reground to higher lift and duration specs...the current air induction system provides more air then the motor needs for over 80% of the RPM band (750-4200)... on a dyno it is normal to only see 9~13 HP increases all above 4400RPM on a stock motor. On a motor with all the mods I already described, the increase of the intake mods drops back to 5~9 HP above 4800 rpm...well within the range of error every dyno has so there is no way to definitively claim the mod really increased any power.... again if the vehicle is destined to spend a LOT of time at 3/4 to WOT then every little bit helps and it may be a good expenditure of cash.
There are millions of these 5.4 and 6.8L motors on the road and in the very heavy category a LOT of folks are looking for more power and also better MPG... real hard nut to crack with a already decent and well engineered design... these are not the BB 460CI V8s of days past... there is NOT a lot of hidden HP and torque to find inside without a lot of work... I know dozens of guys who have over $6000 invested to eek out a extra 75~95 HP.... hell for $3700 they could have gotten the 6.0L PSD, spent $695 on a decent chip and gotten a LOT more power in the 175 to 225HP range... that is a LOT of Bang for the Buck
Let me clear up a few things for you and other following the thread.
The speedometer reading is taken off the differential carrier by a tone ring that is directly bolted to the carrier at the back of the big ring gear. This is counting pulses of the rotation of the AXLE not the drive shaft. Changing gear ratios does not effect these pulses because it does not care how many pinion gear rotations it takes to make the tone ring/ring gear turn one rotation. If you change the Tire diameter to smaller then there are more axle/tone ring/ring gear rotations per mile...opposit effect if you put on larger diameter tires...now there are less rotations per mile
Because these PCMs have a "learning" strategy... they do modify the base default program as the vehicle is put through the first three or four "driving cycles". A "driving cycle" is where the motor is started, full operating temp, speeds up to and over 30 MPH with a mix of Full stops (like at a stop light) then back to over 30MPH 3 or 4 times before motor shut down. There is a section in the owners manual that describes preparation for IM testing (emissions test) that must be followed right after a battery disconnect to set all the systems to pass a IM test. This is the abbreviated prep cycle but gives a better description of the method to reset the PCM maps.
The 2v V10 has been put on a dyno many times with all these various modifications... first thing to remember is a dyno is set to test WOT power curves and this info can be helpful to see if any mod or series of mods increased power and where that power increase came in. The V10 is already a well engineered machine and the factory has it set for a LOT of bottom end torque... Remember it is a TRUCK designed to get a HEAVY load moving from a stop. The rod lengths, head volumes, intake plenum, valve timing and lift ignition curve and injector curve are all OPTIMIZED for bottom end low rpm power.... That said... all the aftermarket bolt on power adders are designed to increase only those areas where they bolt on... intake plumbing and exhaust plumbing...most of the time these devices will add MAX RPM power but about 90% of the time it is at the expense of bottom end grunt. For racing or a lot of time in low gears hauling a load up and over a mountain pass there is quite a bit that can be done to improve performance...usualy you loose fuel efficiency and most of the time you decrease power in the 1900-2250 RPM range...if you spend a lot of time on frewways at cruising speeds of 65~75MPH these mods can hurt MPG effeciancy because there is less NET HP in this rpm range
It is possible to create a COMPLIMENTARY Set of modifications to slightly increase the bottom end and modestly increase the TOP end for an all around net gain and actually increase the MPG.
A gear change to 4.10, 4.30 or 4.88 along with a tire diameter change to get the 70MPH cruise RPM set to around 2100 is desirable.
On the 99-2004 2v V10s there are a few exhaust mods that yield around 9~17 HP still low in the power band to be usable for non racing use. Next logical mod is a tuner to tweak the fuel and ignition map... but a serious study is needed to get the max out of her with out killing the bottom end power curve...very possible to do but requires some compromises and a lot of dyno time. The final mod that works is a new rebuild of the 4R100 trany with shift point mods and better valves
Notice I stay away from any mention of air box, filter, MAF, spacers, throttle bodies, and plumbing... this is because there are no real gains here UNLESS you are willing to retune the flow characteristics of the heads, rework the valves and have new Cam profiles welded on and reground to higher lift and duration specs...the current air induction system provides more air then the motor needs for over 80% of the RPM band (750-4200)... on a dyno it is normal to only see 9~13 HP increases all above 4400RPM on a stock motor. On a motor with all the mods I already described, the increase of the intake mods drops back to 5~9 HP above 4800 rpm...well within the range of error every dyno has so there is no way to definitively claim the mod really increased any power.... again if the vehicle is destined to spend a LOT of time at 3/4 to WOT then every little bit helps and it may be a good expenditure of cash.
There are millions of these 5.4 and 6.8L motors on the road and in the very heavy category a LOT of folks are looking for more power and also better MPG... real hard nut to crack with a already decent and well engineered design... these are not the BB 460CI V8s of days past... there is NOT a lot of hidden HP and torque to find inside without a lot of work... I know dozens of guys who have over $6000 invested to eek out a extra 75~95 HP.... hell for $3700 they could have gotten the 6.0L PSD, spent $695 on a decent chip and gotten a LOT more power in the 175 to 225HP range... that is a LOT of Bang for the Buck
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
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From: Long Island USA
One comment about the "pinging" thing... check all the exhaust heat shields, and the bellhousing inspection cover.
Also, I have heard of plenty of V10's (here) that pinged, but after a computer reset, did not. It appears earlier PCM codes had a bug where the knock sensor was not in the "loop" after a certain point. I'd reset the computer NOW and see what happens to that ping.
Also, I have heard of plenty of V10's (here) that pinged, but after a computer reset, did not. It appears earlier PCM codes had a bug where the knock sensor was not in the "loop" after a certain point. I'd reset the computer NOW and see what happens to that ping.
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