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Surge debate...
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: South Eastern MN
Surge debate...
I had a discussion with my brother... it's n 02 7.3 with the 6637, superchips, a mufflerectomy, and the 10k mod. I can just bearly hear some compressor surge when in OD going up a hill as full throttle as you can get without down shifting. My question is, am I damaging my turbo?
Fleet Owner
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Rio Rico, AZ.
Originally Posted by sneak
I had a discussion with my brother... it's n 02 7.3 with the 6637, superchips, a mufflerectomy, and the 10k mod. I can just bearly hear some compressor surge when in OD going up a hill as full throttle as you can get without down shifting. My question is, am I damaging my turbo?
If you ever need to pull some weight you will hear the surge a lot worst.
I could get my turbo to surge with a stock tune pulling 24k up a hill.
Senior User
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Tucson, AZ
What you're hearing when the turbo surges is air from the intake coming back into the compressor wheel of the turbo. I would assume this is caused by the fact that the turbocharger is not properly sized for the application and is very inefficient. Not only is it bad, but it's pretty sad that these trucks have this issue being that so many are on the road. There are cheap fixes available but I would recommend replacing the turbo with a better/larger unit if you ever tow, the difference is amazing. The one thing I would not want is the turbo coming apart, the damage could be catastrophic (had it happen before on a car).
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: South Eastern MN
Letthal, I know what surge is, I just havn't had much experience with it. Where did the housings on that turbo you had fail come apart? This is my friends car having a serious turbo failiure. http://media.putfile.com/Turbo-explosion
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Freshman User
Joined: Jun 2006
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New to modding my truck and need help with this too.
I recently installed a Tymar filter setup on my '01 deisel. It makes a loud whoosh when i getting on it betwwen shifts and if you floor it and let up at a red light. Is this what you guys a calling surging the turbo. If this is so what could I do to eliminate it.
I recently installed a Tymar filter setup on my '01 deisel. It makes a loud whoosh when i getting on it betwwen shifts and if you floor it and let up at a red light. Is this what you guys a calling surging the turbo. If this is so what could I do to eliminate it.
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: South Eastern MN
Turbo surge is when you are under FULL or heavy throttle and there is not enough force produced by your exhaust wheel to keep your compressor wheel spinning fast enough to keep the air in your intake IN your intake and it seeps back through your compressor housing.
What you're describing is pretty much the same physics, but the reason your turbine cannot keep up with your compressor wheel is because you just let up on the throttle, stopping those hot gasses from coming out of your engine. It is harmless, and it was there before you put your intake on, you just didn't notice it.
What you're describing is pretty much the same physics, but the reason your turbine cannot keep up with your compressor wheel is because you just let up on the throttle, stopping those hot gasses from coming out of your engine. It is harmless, and it was there before you put your intake on, you just didn't notice it.
Tuned
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 331
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From: grorgetown,in
[QUOTE=sneak]Letthal, I know what surge is, I just havn't had much experience with it. Where did the housings on that turbo you had fail come apart? This is my friends car having a serious turbo failiure. http://media.putfile.com/Turbo-explosion[/QUOTE]
How many rpms was it turning when it blew?
How many rpms was it turning when it blew?
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: South Eastern MN
Originally Posted by EclipseGST@dsmstyle.com
So on Saturday I took my car to a local shop that has an in ground dynojet setup. Real nice guy and pretty decent priced too. Anyways, put it on the dyno and I was running pig rich the first couple of runs. Finally got it tuned decent by bumping up boost and leaning it out, still running 11.2-11.5:1 on C16 trying to lean it out by getting more boost out of the turbo.
At first I was running 15psi just to get a decent setting on DSMlink. BTW: 1600cc injectors work perfect with DSMlink if anyone was wondering. Decided to bump the boost up to 25 after the first couple of pulls. Then to 30. Made the first pull at 30psi and BOOM! The turbo explodes. Made 438whp and 357ft/lbs Tq at 6500rpms. Never saw 30psi on my boost gauge. Hit 26 then it blew. I looked back at the DSMLink log and I was flowing about 47lbs/min and I hit 26psi by 6300rpm where it died. The turbo is rated at 85lbs/min so I still had a ways to go!
Here is a video of the carnage and the dyno graph. Note: Watch the car by the passenger headlight when the RPMs really start winding up. You can see everything shift and the car move about 1/2 a foot on the dyno when the turbo went. Pretty interesting if you ask me.......I just dont understand why it came apart like it did. I think it blew out then took the compressor wheel with it otherwise I highly doubt it would have made 26psi or blown up like it did. When it blew, I think the compressor wheel shattered when it hit the compressor housing at 75,000+ rpms. Who knows.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Dallas, Texas
I need to just have a file to cut and paste this so I don't have to keep typing it.
No, it won't hurt the turbo unless you are pushing 30+ psi. These little turbo's can't generate enough nut to damage itself. There's been a lot of discussion on this site/forum about drive pressures and max boost....and that's all well and good BUT - a lot of the kind members here have upgraded their turbo's and this is when surge becomes a damage issue.
Yeah, it's a small shaft turbo
Yup, it maxes out at 25 psi
Sure, you could run it up to 28 psi
These engines produce enough oil pressure to "float" the center shaft without the thing even spinning - oil deficiencies are where the failures come from - or a nice dusting due to poor filtration.
No, it won't hurt the turbo unless you are pushing 30+ psi. These little turbo's can't generate enough nut to damage itself. There's been a lot of discussion on this site/forum about drive pressures and max boost....and that's all well and good BUT - a lot of the kind members here have upgraded their turbo's and this is when surge becomes a damage issue.
Yeah, it's a small shaft turbo
Yup, it maxes out at 25 psi
Sure, you could run it up to 28 psi
These engines produce enough oil pressure to "float" the center shaft without the thing even spinning - oil deficiencies are where the failures come from - or a nice dusting due to poor filtration.
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Dallas, Texas
As far as that 438 hp DSM....I got a feeling that oil supply was the issue. A lot of these weekend warriors will upgrade to a turbo three times what is rational and not upgrade the oil supply. His result is very common.
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: South Eastern MN
I read that somewhere before.....
You think a lack of oil caused part of the compessor housing backing plate fracture off the center section and and cause the compressor wheel to shatter? There was no play, axial or otherwise in the shaft. Sure it was only 438 HP, but that was at 6,300 rpm and he was revving to 9,000+. That turbo was only puting out 47 lb's/min, and it's rated at 85 lb's/min He has an oil feed line directly from the oil pump, and trust me when I say he doesn't mess around.
Edit:
You think a lack of oil caused part of the compessor housing backing plate fracture off the center section and and cause the compressor wheel to shatter? There was no play, axial or otherwise in the shaft. Sure it was only 438 HP, but that was at 6,300 rpm and he was revving to 9,000+. That turbo was only puting out 47 lb's/min, and it's rated at 85 lb's/min He has an oil feed line directly from the oil pump, and trust me when I say he doesn't mess around.
Edit:
Elder User
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 763
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From: Dallas, Texas
I would think that. I would also think some form of debris made it into the journal housing and possibly caused an abrupt slow down of the shaft. That in itself will shatter an aluminum compressor (and most parts around it) - especially at 35-40 psi and 80,000 - 100,000 rpm.
I in no way assumed this guy (DSM) is not on top of his game....sorry if that seemed implied.
YEP...
I in no way assumed this guy (DSM) is not on top of his game....sorry if that seemed implied.
YEP...