Waste streams question
#16
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
OK, so my education continues. Magnesol, according to the manufacturer is synthetic magnesium silicate. So it is a magnesium compound. Essentially magnesium chemically combined with sand.
I also now understand that amost all of the methanol is cooked out of the glycerine as well as out of the bio. The glycerine is the base material for making soap.
HOWEVER, methanol is so poisonous that even trace amounts of it are harmful if injested or absorbed through the skin. So I don't understand how soap and magnesium sand can be safely fed to livestock - especially if they contain even the slightest traces of methanol and/or lye. I'm hoping Fabman can answer that one for me 'cause right now it doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Right now, the concerns over the wastes are really the only thing standing in the way of my moving forward with setting up my own bio processor.
One other question. Is there any alternative to using methanol? Any other less-hazardous, kind of alcohol that can be substituted for the methanol?
I also now understand that amost all of the methanol is cooked out of the glycerine as well as out of the bio. The glycerine is the base material for making soap.
HOWEVER, methanol is so poisonous that even trace amounts of it are harmful if injested or absorbed through the skin. So I don't understand how soap and magnesium sand can be safely fed to livestock - especially if they contain even the slightest traces of methanol and/or lye. I'm hoping Fabman can answer that one for me 'cause right now it doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Right now, the concerns over the wastes are really the only thing standing in the way of my moving forward with setting up my own bio processor.
One other question. Is there any alternative to using methanol? Any other less-hazardous, kind of alcohol that can be substituted for the methanol?
Send me a PM with your regular email add, and I'll send you the study on feeding glycerol to cattle. IF you recover the methanol from the biodiesel before you use Magnesol, the amount of methanol that remains in the Magnesol is only a couple of parts per MILLION, same with the glycerol.
The key is to be able to do a good job of recovering all the methanol. Methanol is very unstable, and will decompose rapidly in the presence of oxygen. We have fed the glycerol to our cattle and they will MOB you if they see the pail of glycerol because it is very sweet!
As for the soap, if you remove the methanol FIRST, before using Magnesol, the soap is filtered out. About the only thing left are FFAs, very small amounts of Lye, water, and trace amounts of methanol.
The only sample of glycerol I've had tested showed 20 parts per BILLION of methanol.
#17
Glycerol is a suger alchol and is used as an additive in many foods.
When used as a food additive it must be very pure, few contaminants allowed, but it is FDA approved
Edit addition:
It is also the main ingredient in KY Jelly and other "personal" lubricants.
When used as a food additive it must be very pure, few contaminants allowed, but it is FDA approved
Edit addition:
It is also the main ingredient in KY Jelly and other "personal" lubricants.
Last edited by Phydeaux88; 01-09-2007 at 10:25 AM.
#18
#19
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
Congrats Phydeaux! One more post and your a "posting Guru"
Hooray !!!!! Yipee !!!!! Yeeehaaa !!!!Finally made it !!!!!
Thanks for the heads up Fab I hadn't really been paying attention.
BTW I notice you are closing in on the update yourself.
With this post I cross a threshold on my way to posting superstardom
Everyone is invited to my house for free beer tonight
Jusr turn right at the Exxon station go 3 blocks and turn right again I will leave the light on.
Last edited by Phydeaux88; 01-09-2007 at 08:04 PM.
#20
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
Send me a PM with your regular email add, and I'll send you the study on feeding glycerol to cattle. IF you recover the methanol from the biodiesel before you use Magnesol, the amount of methanol that remains in the Magnesol is only a couple of parts per MILLION, same with the glycerol.
The key is to be able to do a good job of recovering all the methanol. Methanol is very unstable, and will decompose rapidly in the presence of oxygen. We have fed the glycerol to our cattle and they will MOB you if they see the pail of glycerol because it is very sweet!
As for the soap, if you remove the methanol FIRST, before using Magnesol, the soap is filtered out. About the only thing left are FFAs, very small amounts of Lye, water, and trace amounts of methanol.
The only sample of glycerol I've had tested showed 20 parts per BILLION of methanol.
The key is to be able to do a good job of recovering all the methanol. Methanol is very unstable, and will decompose rapidly in the presence of oxygen. We have fed the glycerol to our cattle and they will MOB you if they see the pail of glycerol because it is very sweet!
As for the soap, if you remove the methanol FIRST, before using Magnesol, the soap is filtered out. About the only thing left are FFAs, very small amounts of Lye, water, and trace amounts of methanol.
The only sample of glycerol I've had tested showed 20 parts per BILLION of methanol.
What are FFAs? You've clearly defined the trace amounts of methanol - obviously low enough to be ignored, but how small is "very small amounts of lye..."?
You all are giving me quite an education in the finer points of bio production and I want to say thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I'll PM you my addy for the glycerol-as-feed-study info, Fabman. Do you have any similar info about using magnesol as feed?
Phydeaux88, how pure is "pure enough" for ethanol to be used in the process? Does it have to be water-free too (199+ proof)? Or just free of other contaminants? I kinda like the idea of using ethanol if a reasonably priced supply can be found. Its lower toxicity makes me feel a lot better about using it if it is a viable alternative....
Last edited by CheaperJeeper; 01-09-2007 at 08:41 PM.
#22
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Ummm, I thought glycerol WAS the soap?!? When you say "if you remove the methanol first, before using magnesol, the soap is filtered out", from that and looking at your diagram I take it you mean that after removing the methanol you can run the bio through a filter to remove the soap? Is it in particles or chunks big enough to filter out, or do you have to use some special kind of filter specifically for soap residues? From looking at your diagram, the recovery of the methanol accomplished simply by applying heat to boil it off (and re-condense and capture it into your tank), correct?
What are FFAs? You've clearly defined the trace amounts of methanol - obviously low enough to be ignored, but how small is "very small amounts of lye..."?
You all are giving me quite an education in the finer points of bio production and I want to say thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I'll PM you my addy for the glycerol-as-feed-study info, Fabman. Do you have any similar info about using magnesol as feed?
Phydeaux88, how pure is "pure enough" for ethanol to be used in the process? Does it have to be water-free too (199+ proof)? Or just free of other contaminants? I kinda like the idea of using ethanol if a reasonably priced supply can be found. Its lower toxicity makes me feel a lot better about using it if it is a viable alternative....
What are FFAs? You've clearly defined the trace amounts of methanol - obviously low enough to be ignored, but how small is "very small amounts of lye..."?
You all are giving me quite an education in the finer points of bio production and I want to say thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I'll PM you my addy for the glycerol-as-feed-study info, Fabman. Do you have any similar info about using magnesol as feed?
Phydeaux88, how pure is "pure enough" for ethanol to be used in the process? Does it have to be water-free too (199+ proof)? Or just free of other contaminants? I kinda like the idea of using ethanol if a reasonably priced supply can be found. Its lower toxicity makes me feel a lot better about using it if it is a viable alternative....
I use heat AND vacuum to recover the methanol, but have developed a new process that is much faster, and requires less energy input. I will be posting it shortly, as soon as I receive the conformation back from the patent office on the receipt of my application.
FFAs are Free Fatty Acids, which are mono, di, or triglycerides that have had there glycerol molecule "broken-off" because of excess heat in the cooking cycle. A PH test will tell how "base" the glycerol is and a simple acid [like vinegar] can be added to bring it to a neutral PH.
My contact at the Dallas Group [the people who make Magnesol] says the studies they are doing on feeding the magnesol are not complete, BUT there have been no adverse side affects yet.
In order to use ethanol in the reaction it must be very pure, 99.5 percent or better. Distillation will not make it pure enough. After distillation it must be forced through a "molecular sieve" to reach a purity suitable for use in the biodiesel reaction. Cost of commercial ethanol is above $4.00 a gallon if you could get the permits to buy it. Not very cost effective.
#23
#24
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
Yes, we are talking about my "open" style processor.
OK, well, you've answered all my questions (at least all I can think of right now) Fabman, and I thank you for it.
Kinda sux that ethanol is so spendy and hard to get. Guess that's why everyone doesn't use it, huh?
At this point sounds like the ball is in my court - just gotta' get off my duff and get started building a system, buying supplies, and collecting oil....
#25
#26
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Ummm, I thought glycerol WAS the soap?!?
Animal and Vegetable oils are made of Fatty Acids bound to a Glycerin backbone so the traditional soap making process uses this readily available raw material as a source of FFAs. Lye is introduced to break the bonds that connect the fatty acids to their glycerin backbone yeilding glycerol and FFAs.
Then water is added and the mixture is whipped to form the emulsion.
There is glycerol present in soap but it is an insignificant contaminant, although it actually provide some fringe benefits.
The residual lye probably is partly responsible for the cleansing nature of soap.
Removing methanol from your processed BD helps the soap come out of suspension so it can be filtered out.
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
What are FFAs?
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Phydeaux88, how pure is "pure enough" for ethanol to be used in the process? Does it have to be water-free too (199+ proof)? Or just free of other contaminants? I kinda like the idea of using ethanol if a reasonably priced supply can be found. Its lower toxicity makes me feel a lot better about using it if it is a viable alternative....
Last edited by Phydeaux88; 01-10-2007 at 03:20 PM.
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