The news from the south is all bad - you guys who are fire fighters be careful. Not sure what went wrong but it was deadly.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. . . .

 

I used to work Forest Service down there back when I was young...ger. Tough duty when the Santa Ana blows for sure. Originally named Santana Wind, which is Mexican for "Devil Wind".
My heart goes out to the families of the guys trying to save lives and homes. My heart goes out to the now one survivor, with 95% of his body burned, struggling to stay alive. I feel ill thinking of this person's pain.
God Speed.

 

This is definitely a tragedy.

Flags are at half staff by order of the governor. I am off duty tomrorrow and I will be offering my prayers in the way I know best.

I believe that I can understand the feelings of the famillies and employees. Our forest lost 2/3 of an engine crew about 3 years ago, albeit not to the flames.

God speed my brothers.

 

What could have gone wrong? Didn't they have the fire suits or bags you can get into? Any idea?

 

All I know is what I've seen on the TV. I go back on duty Sunday, there should be a 24 hour brief, with a 72 hour coming out within the next few days so then I will have the "official" hype.

I will not speculate on what happened, but to be caught in the open and not have time to shelter in place, in my opinion only, makes it seem as if somone had become so focused on what was going on immediately at hand and did not see the changes happening in the big picture. And yeah they should have had fireshelters on their person when outside of the engine. Training is to be able to get into a fireshelter in 30 seconds or less.

That is also what "Look up, Look Down, Look Around" training is all about.

I will admit to being a bit of a backseat QB at times, but not this one.

I did see a film clip of the scene on CNN yesterday but havent seen anything like it since. It may have been requested to be pulled as now that is evidence in a homicide case.

It sux when this happens. I didn't know any of them, I don't think, but, Im soft inside and it makes me sad.

R

 

I have learned to never second guess a decision made in a situation like that one. I used to work down in So Cal and I know just how fast things can change down there. especially during initial attack (first responers).
There are a number of factors that may have contributed to this tragety. A combination of several is probably more accurate.
In Southern Cal, the wildland has been encroached by human dwelling for many years due to the rapid and ramped development of open space. Many are taking to mountainous areas to escape the urban sprawl, and firefighters find themselves increasingly in a position to save human life and property in very complexed situations. It no longer is just wildland resource protection. Especially down there. The Wildland/Urban Interface is a significant complication, along with the extreme fire behavior typical of those infamous chapparel vegitation types of SoCal. then throw in the dreaded Santana Winds that typically occur this time of year.
I looked at some photos I found on the net this morning and noticed that they were on a narrow road, one way in and one way out. It appeared that there was heavy fuel around the structure and it was placed in a topographic nightmare. Chimney type airflow up the canyon and it also appeared to be mid-slope. Bad place to build a house.
So when these "kids" (a lot of them are) responded into this area, they may not have been able to accurately assess the conditions of the fuels and topography due to darkness and heavy cover. Then the speed that this fire was running and spotting, they may not have known they were in trouble until it was too late to leave. I assumme that their escape route was cut off by the fire and they may have been trying to stop the fire at their "defensible space", which would be the home's front yard.
All of us homeowner who live in wildland settings receive notices from the local fire departments, advising us to clear defensible space. If we don't clear this space, firefighters should move on to the next home that does in fact have a defensible area that firefighters can make a stand. But then you throw in other factors like that particular Santana Condition, overgrown brush that has never burned in recorded history, firefighter visibility issues from darkness and smoke etc, etc, etc... The list goes on. These firefighters made a decision based on what they thought they could do. Maybe things changed once they got in there. Maybe they missed indicators and were caught up in trying to ensure nobody was at the house. Maybe they just took a chance and it got them.
I don't know, but I will certainly not ever second guess a decision made in the field. We are all human and can make mistakes or miss signs. Maybe something we should have seen or maybe just fate, and nothing we ever could humanly have done to foresee the changes coming. Whatever the circumstances, these brave people went in to do something positive. Stepping up when others are in need, they ran in.
My hat is off to them, and until someone can say that they were there, at that time, in their shoes, I don't think anyone has the right to judge their decisions. We should just morn our loss, as we just lost 4 (maybe 5) more of what this country needs the most. People who care for fellow man. People who care enough to walk into danger to do something positive. We are losing them every day over seas too.
God bless our heros!

 

Like I said, sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. My old chief used to tell us, "you have to go, but you don't have to come back!"

I expect your wives are upset about this - most of us thought that your fire shelters would protect you should you get cut off. It is hard to think of something happening so fast that you would not have time to get into one.

I think you are nuts to run toward something everyone else is running away from - and agree that you should pass by any home where the owners have not provided a "defensible space". If they don't care enough about the home to clear the brush, why should you protect them from their own mistakes?

And, Tim, this isn't about second guessing the men on the scene - almost all accidents are a series of small minor things, each unimportant in itself, that cascade in a cataclysmic way and produce a tradegy. Nothing we do will bring those men back, but a good investigation may keep it from happening to someone else.

The news reports show a narrow winding road with only one way out, and a homesite located in about the worst location (fire-wise). Why did the county issue a building permit? Having done so, why don't they require the brush to be cleared?

For that matter, why were the men ordered into that location? It was night, and they didn't know the terrain. Why were they not told to make a quick pass to insure all the people were out, and then directed to a safe location until daylight?

You see there are at least two other entities - the county and whoever was in charge of the fire - that may have contributed to the horror. Add to it that it appears this fire was arson - and when we catch the guy who started it we may find out this was not his first brush with the law.

We need to know what happened and why so we can correct all that we can.

 

Clint, I totally understand about learning from the tragic loss of another from perceived mistakes. We need to do that. I'm sure that tragedies have been prevented that way many times. But still we find ourselves folding flags time and time again none the less. The circumstances at that scene were tremendous.
As far as the effectiveness of a fire shelter in that situation, after looking at the photos of the burn over sight, I think fire shelters may have proven inaffective. Personally, if there was time to do anything, I think their best option may have been to kick in the door of the house to seek refuge from the initial impact of the flame front, then exit with the shelter as the structure became involved. There doesn't seem to have been time to do any of this though. I'm guesssing their options were limited and decisioins hurried.
So, yes the question remains, should they have even been there in the first place? Well, NO. But if this was a mistake in judgement or just a tragic and unavoidable oversight, we will never know without being there at that time.
BTW, I was in no way implying that you were second guessing their decisions. I was only pre-emptively making a point in general. Not in any way making a point directed to you my friend.

 

Oh man, that tunnel vision. It DOES happen to everyone on the line from time to time. All we can do is be fully aware of it. This is where experience comes in. And not the kind you get out of a text book.

 

The memorial service was held today for the five fallen firefighters of BDF E-57 in Riverside. My forest sent 1 polished engine in honor. We also held a moment of silence this morning.

A suspect has been apprehended and in custody for this and other fires in the LA basin area.

Keep your heads up, my brothers and sisters, for we know not when the bell will toll and the dragon will breathe.

Rich