hydrogen powered car
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From: Montreal, Canada
Thanks for the clarification. It seems so obvious! On a purely safety issue and being aware of the stability of hydrogen, which type of vehicle would be safer? Surely highway safety would be severly compromized if there is a risk of hydrogen tanks to blowing up in an accident.
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Originally Posted by fellro86
The fuel cells are still no salvation, as the again use a hydrocarbon for the hydrogen source, so it still keeps us dependent on petroleum,
As for RVFOGs comment about tanks blowing up -- that normally happen only in movies. (they do catch fire, however) Production cars should have strong enough containers to minimize the risk.
.
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From: Marengo, Iowa
The trick is, as stated, it takes a lot of energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen in water, as it is one of the most stable compounds in the world. Hydrogen doesn't want to leave, and oxygen doesn't want it to leave, so it is enrgy expensive to split them up. Where does that energy come from? Fuel cells don't work on water... I would be interested to know how solar cells will help in forming hydrogen separate from the oxygen... it could help make water vapor, but that does not help in separating the hydrogen so it can be recombined with the oxygen to again form water vapor... (the hydrogen "burning" process is simply recombining it with oxygen...)
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Hydrogen can be made by electrolysis from water, and if the electricity comes from, for example, solar cells, the running cost should be very small. As I mentioned, there's a steep initial investment that should be amortised over some years so it's not as cheap as the cost of the water, but I think it should be cost effective in the not very distant future. Of course, that would also require a widely available, relatively inexpensive hydrogen powered car (either fuel cell or IC).
BTW, water is actually is not that stable since it reacts with many metals (rust!!)
BTW, water is actually is not that stable since it reacts with many metals (rust!!)
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Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Marengo, Iowa
Water itself doesn't react, rather the oxygen does, as the metals have a need for their own stability satisfaction, so then the hydrogen is released, and the oxygen then combines with the metal to form the oxide compound...
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Nope. Water itself does react with many metals, some very violently (i.e. K, Na, etc.) and in many cases the products are hydroxides (KOH, NaOH); sometimes mostly oxides (rust), however, during rust formation, the first product happens to be ferrous hydroxide, which get oxidized to ferric oxide. For more details, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust
My point is that even though water may seem stable (because there are so much of it, and because breaking it into H2 and O2 is difficult and/or requiring significant amount of energy) that's not the case. Unknown to many people, water molecules can actually dissociate (especially in presence of certain impurities) and the resulting ions are very reactive. More on this on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
My point is that even though water may seem stable (because there are so much of it, and because breaking it into H2 and O2 is difficult and/or requiring significant amount of energy) that's not the case. Unknown to many people, water molecules can actually dissociate (especially in presence of certain impurities) and the resulting ions are very reactive. More on this on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
Last edited by aurgathor; Jan 23, 2007 at 11:05 AM.
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From: Montreal, Canada
Gentlemen, this is fascinating stuff but frankly over the head of we mere mortals. Can you shed some light on the following issues:
1. If IC engines can run on H (is that the symbol? I forget my school chemistry), what modifications have to be made to the engine?
2. Can similar mofications be made to diesels?
3. Sticking with the IC engine, will it turn up the same HP as it would on fossil fuel?
4. How would consumption be measured?
5. How would the H be stored on a vehicle?
6. Is it conceivable that H could be extracted directly from the atmosphere by the vehicle?
7. If If H is extracted from the atmosphere (assuming that is the source rather than seperating it from H2O), how does it return to the atmosphere?
8. What gases or compounds are produced as the result of the combustion? (I think someone mentioned water).
9. What would be amount of water vapour generated? (someone may have answered that already but if so it went by me), and lastly
10. How many cubic feet or meters of H are required to lift 1000lbs (approx 450Kg)? i.e if a Smart car was modified, would it have to carry ballast to keep it grounded?
1. If IC engines can run on H (is that the symbol? I forget my school chemistry), what modifications have to be made to the engine?
2. Can similar mofications be made to diesels?
3. Sticking with the IC engine, will it turn up the same HP as it would on fossil fuel?
4. How would consumption be measured?
5. How would the H be stored on a vehicle?
6. Is it conceivable that H could be extracted directly from the atmosphere by the vehicle?
7. If If H is extracted from the atmosphere (assuming that is the source rather than seperating it from H2O), how does it return to the atmosphere?
8. What gases or compounds are produced as the result of the combustion? (I think someone mentioned water).
9. What would be amount of water vapour generated? (someone may have answered that already but if so it went by me), and lastly
10. How many cubic feet or meters of H are required to lift 1000lbs (approx 450Kg)? i.e if a Smart car was modified, would it have to carry ballast to keep it grounded?
Hotshot
Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Marengo, Iowa
Originally Posted by aurgathor
Nope. Water itself does react with many metals, some very violently (i.e. K, Na, etc.) and in many cases the products are hydroxides (KOH, NaOH); sometimes mostly oxides (rust), however, during rust formation, the first product happens to be ferrous hydroxide, which get oxidized to ferric oxide. For more details, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust
My point is that even though water may seem stable (because there are so much of it, and because breaking it into H2 and O2 is difficult and/or requiring significant amount of energy) that's not the case. Unknown to many people, water molecules can actually dissociate (especially in presence of certain impurities) and the resulting ions are very reactive. More on this on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
My point is that even though water may seem stable (because there are so much of it, and because breaking it into H2 and O2 is difficult and/or requiring significant amount of energy) that's not the case. Unknown to many people, water molecules can actually dissociate (especially in presence of certain impurities) and the resulting ions are very reactive. More on this on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water
Actually, water is as stable as the noble gasses, the difference is that it can be separated into it's elements, by another substance that has a stronger attraction for it's base elements. H2O itself does not react, rather it rearranges so that the oxygen can react. If the compound which forms water were the reactant, then hydrogen would remain involved, but it is released.
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Originally Posted by fellro86
Actually, water is as stable as the noble gasses, the difference is that it can be separated into it's elements, by another substance that has a stronger attraction for it's base elements. H2O itself does not react, rather it rearranges so that the oxygen can react. If the compound which forms water were the reactant, then hydrogen would remain involved, but it is released.
a) water will react with several common gases found in the atmosphere, (concentration for NOx and SO2 can vary greatly, depending on regions) such as CO2, SO2, or NOx (mostly NO2; concentration for NOx and SO2 can vary greatly, depending on region and time of year) -- how would these reactions go according to what you have posted? (i.e. H2O + SO2 -> H2SO3, etc.)
b) H2O + F2 -> 2HF + O2
As for "rearrangement" (I assume you meant the auto-dissociation of water) I have posted the wiki link -- you either get OH- and H+, or OH- and H3O+ (depending on the source and textbook -- used to be the first one in my old text books)
In any case, if you insist, please post some supporting evidence, or show that the examples and the links I posted are incorrect.
Last edited by aurgathor; Jan 25, 2007 at 01:42 PM.
Hotshot
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From: Marengo, Iowa
I'm talking about their electron arrangements, which is what actually is the reaction area. The elctron shells rearrange, to make the reaction possible. The noble gasses have 8 electrons in their valence shell, and so does water. Oxygen by itself has 6, and wants two more. Hydrogen supplies the two electrons,(one each) and is more than happy to supply theirs. All compounds try to reach 8 electrons in their valence shell to be stable, otherwise, they try to find something to bond with to acheive the needed 8 electrons. Potassium has one electron in it's valence shel, so it wants to give it away. All compounds are held together by their electron bonds, and to be able to break that bond it takes something with stronger electron needs than the water itself, forcing the hydrogen to be released so the oxygen atom can bond with the substance that is the reaction. If it is such nonsense, then I guess my chemistry professor is teaching nonsense.
H2O + F2 -> 2HF + O2
Flourine only needs one electron to get the 8 needed, so then the 2 HF molecules are satisfied by single bonds. O2 itself is fairly stable, because it double bonds to satisfy it's need for 8 valence electrons,as it shares 2 electrons per atom, but it isn't a real strong bond. So then when it encounters a substance that has a less negative charge, like say Calcium, it will release the bonds to bond equally with the Calcium, which wants to give away 2 electrons to become more stable. Helium is the one and only element which is stable with two, because that electron shell (s) is filled with two electrons, making it not want any more.
F2 is actually still essentially a negatively charged particle, even though the atoms share one electron, it just isn't really the same as sharing an electron with say one Hydrogen atom, the same applies to oxygen. It is relatively stable, but when the opportunity arises, it will bond. That is what actually is going on in a reaction, electron rearrangement and molecular bonding. Energy can be either released or absorbed, depending on the strength of the bonds. It gets more in depth than that, that is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. It is general basic chemistry, at the molecular level.
H2O + F2 -> 2HF + O2
Flourine only needs one electron to get the 8 needed, so then the 2 HF molecules are satisfied by single bonds. O2 itself is fairly stable, because it double bonds to satisfy it's need for 8 valence electrons,as it shares 2 electrons per atom, but it isn't a real strong bond. So then when it encounters a substance that has a less negative charge, like say Calcium, it will release the bonds to bond equally with the Calcium, which wants to give away 2 electrons to become more stable. Helium is the one and only element which is stable with two, because that electron shell (s) is filled with two electrons, making it not want any more.
F2 is actually still essentially a negatively charged particle, even though the atoms share one electron, it just isn't really the same as sharing an electron with say one Hydrogen atom, the same applies to oxygen. It is relatively stable, but when the opportunity arises, it will bond. That is what actually is going on in a reaction, electron rearrangement and molecular bonding. Energy can be either released or absorbed, depending on the strength of the bonds. It gets more in depth than that, that is the tip of the iceberg, so to speak. It is general basic chemistry, at the molecular level.
Last edited by fellro86; Jan 25, 2007 at 07:32 PM.
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Well, at least I now know from where the 'stability' is coming in; however, a full shell doesn't mean that a given compound, such as water will be "as stable as noble gases". That's a very fallacious conclusion. There are some very simple counterexamples to that.
I don't know what exactly your chemistry professor said, but in most cases in aqueous solutions you don't get a free oxygen atom (electrolysis, and the one I posted with F is an exception to that, but we talk about the latter later) -- what you normally get is an OH- ion, and that should be easy to see from reactions, and from compounds if you draw them out. BTW, it was a long time ago, but once upon a time I was a chemistry major.
Just like the first paragraph, your explanation for the fluorine water reaction contains generalities, and forgets to mention a key point that it can happen only because fluorine is the most electronegative element of all.
I don't know what exactly your chemistry professor said, but in most cases in aqueous solutions you don't get a free oxygen atom (electrolysis, and the one I posted with F is an exception to that, but we talk about the latter later) -- what you normally get is an OH- ion, and that should be easy to see from reactions, and from compounds if you draw them out. BTW, it was a long time ago, but once upon a time I was a chemistry major.
Just like the first paragraph, your explanation for the fluorine water reaction contains generalities, and forgets to mention a key point that it can happen only because fluorine is the most electronegative element of all.
Last edited by aurgathor; Jan 26, 2007 at 09:08 PM.
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Here's another article about hydrogen powered cars (Hydrogen cars face technological hurdles):
http://www.reuters.com/article/basicindustries-SP-A/idUSN2024329020070322
http://www.reuters.com/article/basicindustries-SP-A/idUSN2024329020070322
Ochmann says BMW estimates it will be 2025 before hydrogen powered vehicles are commonly produced and sold.
Last edited by aurgathor; Mar 22, 2007 at 10:01 AM.
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Cargo Master
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From: Lynnwood, WA
Here's a Ford opinion (press release?!) about hydrogen powered cars.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070710/ford_hydrogen.html?.v=5
(this link will expire in a week or two, so here's the whole article)
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070710/ford_hydrogen.html?.v=5
(this link will expire in a week or two, so here's the whole article)
Ford: Hydrogen Cars Close to Production
Tuesday July 10, 7:33 pm ET
By Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer
Ford Says Hydrogen Powered Cars Could Reach Showrooms Within 5 Years
DEARBORN, Mich. (AP) -- The relatively quick-and-easy answer to foreign oil dependence and automotive greenhouse gas emissions is circling the grounds every day at Orlando International Airport in Florida, according to a top Ford Motor Co. official. It's a utilitarian 12-passenger parking lot shuttle bus powered by a 6.8-liter internal combustion hydrogen engine, which Ford officials said is their hydrogen technology that's closest to mass production.
"We really believe this technology is ready to be evaluated at the consumer level," John Lapetz, the company's program manager for the buses, told reporters on Tuesday at an event staged to tout Ford's future vehicles.
About 30 E-450 Hydrogen shuttle buses are working across the U.S. and Canada, and Ford engineers are monitoring them electronically in real time, Lapetz said. The vehicles, powered by a modified gasoline engine, have near zero emissions and get up to 13 percent better fuel economy than their gasoline counterparts, he said.
Nearly every automaker is testing hydrogen-powered vehicles across the world, touting them as a renewable alternative to gasoline.
Lapetz said Ford has the ability to bring internal combustion hydrogen technology to market in cars within five years. But that's only if fuel storage limitations can be solved, public fear of hydrogen can be allayed, filling stations set up, and gas prices stay high.
"The technology is there at a sufficient level, in the three-to-five year window, if all things were perfect, we could reasonably think this is a solution we could draw on," Lapetz said. "We're not really talking about invention, that's the thing. We know how to manufacture this kind of technology in high volumes."
That time frame is reasonable, Gurpreet Singh, team leader for engine and emission control technologies with the U.S. Department of Energy, said Tuesday.
"You're taking the base gasoline engine and modifying that. You don't need to have anything that's very exotic," he said.
The Energy Department also says hydrogen can be used as safely as other common fuels if handled properly.
Four of Ford's $250,000 buses currently are in service in Orlando, two at the airport and two with the convention bureau. Ford has incurred the design costs and relies on partners to pay for the buses, in this case the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. The buses' range is limited to 150-200 miles by fuel storage technology, and they cost far more than the roughly $70,000 Ford charges for shuttles powered by gas engines.
The first Orlando bus started shuttling passengers in April and has performed reliably, said Carolyn Fennell, spokeswoman for the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority.
Internal combustion hydrogen could be a bridge toward the ultimate hydrogen vehicles powered by fuel cells, which are as far off as 2015 or beyond, said Scott Staley, chief engineer of Ford's hydrogen and fuel cell technology department.
Internal combustion hydrogen engines give off a small amount of pollution because they burn lubricants, Lapetz said. Fuel cell vehicles, on the other hand, use hydrogen to produce electricity that fuels an electric motor. They are quieter than gasoline engines and their only waste product is water.
Despite the small amount of pollution, the internal combustion hydrogen engines have another advantage, and that is a far lower cost than fuel cells, Lapetz said.
"It doesn't have the sizzle of a fuel cell, but it's got the steak of the meal," he said.
Tuesday July 10, 7:33 pm ET
By Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer
Ford Says Hydrogen Powered Cars Could Reach Showrooms Within 5 Years
DEARBORN, Mich. (AP) -- The relatively quick-and-easy answer to foreign oil dependence and automotive greenhouse gas emissions is circling the grounds every day at Orlando International Airport in Florida, according to a top Ford Motor Co. official. It's a utilitarian 12-passenger parking lot shuttle bus powered by a 6.8-liter internal combustion hydrogen engine, which Ford officials said is their hydrogen technology that's closest to mass production.
"We really believe this technology is ready to be evaluated at the consumer level," John Lapetz, the company's program manager for the buses, told reporters on Tuesday at an event staged to tout Ford's future vehicles.
About 30 E-450 Hydrogen shuttle buses are working across the U.S. and Canada, and Ford engineers are monitoring them electronically in real time, Lapetz said. The vehicles, powered by a modified gasoline engine, have near zero emissions and get up to 13 percent better fuel economy than their gasoline counterparts, he said.
Nearly every automaker is testing hydrogen-powered vehicles across the world, touting them as a renewable alternative to gasoline.
Lapetz said Ford has the ability to bring internal combustion hydrogen technology to market in cars within five years. But that's only if fuel storage limitations can be solved, public fear of hydrogen can be allayed, filling stations set up, and gas prices stay high.
"The technology is there at a sufficient level, in the three-to-five year window, if all things were perfect, we could reasonably think this is a solution we could draw on," Lapetz said. "We're not really talking about invention, that's the thing. We know how to manufacture this kind of technology in high volumes."
That time frame is reasonable, Gurpreet Singh, team leader for engine and emission control technologies with the U.S. Department of Energy, said Tuesday.
"You're taking the base gasoline engine and modifying that. You don't need to have anything that's very exotic," he said.
The Energy Department also says hydrogen can be used as safely as other common fuels if handled properly.
Four of Ford's $250,000 buses currently are in service in Orlando, two at the airport and two with the convention bureau. Ford has incurred the design costs and relies on partners to pay for the buses, in this case the Florida Department of Environmental Protection. The buses' range is limited to 150-200 miles by fuel storage technology, and they cost far more than the roughly $70,000 Ford charges for shuttles powered by gas engines.
The first Orlando bus started shuttling passengers in April and has performed reliably, said Carolyn Fennell, spokeswoman for the Greater Orlando Aviation Authority.
Internal combustion hydrogen could be a bridge toward the ultimate hydrogen vehicles powered by fuel cells, which are as far off as 2015 or beyond, said Scott Staley, chief engineer of Ford's hydrogen and fuel cell technology department.
Internal combustion hydrogen engines give off a small amount of pollution because they burn lubricants, Lapetz said. Fuel cell vehicles, on the other hand, use hydrogen to produce electricity that fuels an electric motor. They are quieter than gasoline engines and their only waste product is water.
Despite the small amount of pollution, the internal combustion hydrogen engines have another advantage, and that is a far lower cost than fuel cells, Lapetz said.
"It doesn't have the sizzle of a fuel cell, but it's got the steak of the meal," he said.
Last edited by aurgathor; Jul 10, 2007 at 09:55 PM.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: May 2005
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From: Chattanooga
Make your own hydrogen induction system to improve your own car milage. Run electricity through water, send fumes through your intake. If you have a high perfomance engine or motorcycle your can run up to 15 percent biodiesel and run like 110 octane 1970s fuel.