Converting to BioDiesel
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 26,337
Likes: 12
From: Paradise Found!
Originally Posted by Hamberger
Well, I finally got some B40 into my freezer over the weekend and was quite suprised what came out two hours later.
The B40 basically turned into semi-hard margerine. I put the B40 into a 500ml plastic bottle and when you squeezed the bottle the "margerine" broke into clumps. Clearly this stuff would completely freeze up your injection system. There is no chance of it flowing anymore. As near as I can tell my freezer runs at about 20-25 deg.F.
Note, a hour after I took the bottle out of the freezer it was a clear liquid oil again.
The good news is that I had expected the Bio and Diesel to separate, this did not happen and the B40 stayed a uniform mix.
As a precaution I put a small bottle into the cab of my truck and sure enough we had the first frost this morning (~30F) when I got up. I took a quick look at my test bottle and you could see some minor clouding in the liquid. The truck started fine and ran fine all moring.
Anybody got any good additives that would help me lower the freeze point to minimize the risk of freezing up my truck this winter while running B40? (Methanol, Diesel Antifreeze, ???????, would any of the usual diesel additive help here, i.e. stanadyne formular, diesel tone, Lucas, FTP, Diesel Kleen, etc..)
Seb....
The B40 basically turned into semi-hard margerine. I put the B40 into a 500ml plastic bottle and when you squeezed the bottle the "margerine" broke into clumps. Clearly this stuff would completely freeze up your injection system. There is no chance of it flowing anymore. As near as I can tell my freezer runs at about 20-25 deg.F.
Note, a hour after I took the bottle out of the freezer it was a clear liquid oil again.
The good news is that I had expected the Bio and Diesel to separate, this did not happen and the B40 stayed a uniform mix.
As a precaution I put a small bottle into the cab of my truck and sure enough we had the first frost this morning (~30F) when I got up. I took a quick look at my test bottle and you could see some minor clouding in the liquid. The truck started fine and ran fine all moring.
Anybody got any good additives that would help me lower the freeze point to minimize the risk of freezing up my truck this winter while running B40? (Methanol, Diesel Antifreeze, ???????, would any of the usual diesel additive help here, i.e. stanadyne formular, diesel tone, Lucas, FTP, Diesel Kleen, etc..)
Seb....
Sounds like the bio your using is Soy based. Soy based bio has a higher cloud point than most other oils. The Bio I make myself is mostly canola based and has a cloud point about 26-28 deg F at B-100. I have been using B-80 for the last 2 winters and have had 0 problems down to 10 deg F.
You are in luck tho... There is a new product out just in time for winter! You can find more info about it here: http://www.enertechlabs.com/
Hope this helps, and let us know how you make out.
FABMANDELUX.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 3
From: Ladner, British Columbia
It soy bean oil alright.
Got even colder this morning (28 deg. F) and the B40 test bottle I kept on the hood of my truck overnight ended up with about 1/2" of gel at the bottom of the bottle. The truck still starts and runs fine.
The B20 test bottle was still fine, no clouding.
The darn thing is I just fuelled up both trucks (220 liters) and it will take me aleast three weeks to work off all that B40. Hopefully it will start to rain around here soon. Those clear autumn skies really bring down the temperature at night.
Seb....
Got even colder this morning (28 deg. F) and the B40 test bottle I kept on the hood of my truck overnight ended up with about 1/2" of gel at the bottom of the bottle. The truck still starts and runs fine.
The B20 test bottle was still fine, no clouding.
The darn thing is I just fuelled up both trucks (220 liters) and it will take me aleast three weeks to work off all that B40. Hopefully it will start to rain around here soon. Those clear autumn skies really bring down the temperature at night.
Seb....
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 3
From: Ladner, British Columbia
Thanks, I will be able to top up the 93' tonight on both tanks. Unfortunately the 91's tanks are full to the top so I am thinking of tripple dosing them with Howies Antigel tonight.
I tell you when B40 sets up and becomes margerine it does not look pretty. There is no way you are going to get it to flow unless you get it hot enough so it will melt back into its liquid state.
Seb.....
I tell you when B40 sets up and becomes margerine it does not look pretty. There is no way you are going to get it to flow unless you get it hot enough so it will melt back into its liquid state.
Seb.....
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 3
From: Ladner, British Columbia
CFPP for B40 using Soybean Oil
I tend to agree from what I have seen from my test bottles that B40 is definetely pushing it if temperatures drop below 32 F unless you add antigel.
I added some Howie's Antigel to both my trucks and my B40 test bottle last night. Everything was good this morning. There was no gel at the bottom of the test bottle anymore. The B40 was cloudy (i.e. could not see thru it) but seemed to flow without any issues. There were no visible solid chuncks, just a foggy and slightly more viscous liquid.
The B20 Test bottle looked good as always.
I think I will try to put the B40 test bottle with the Howies Antigel back into my Freezer tonight to see if the B40 with the Howies Antigel will stay liquid and maintain its CFPP at 20 deg F. Freezer runs at 20 deg F.
The truck ran fine this morning and seeing that I am using a 2 micron filter the CFPP (Cold Flow Filter Plugging Point) of the B40 is still ok.
Note, I did not top up my tanks, I decide to try the antigel route to see how it would work out. It worked from what I have seen sofar.
Thanks for all the help,
Seb.....
I added some Howie's Antigel to both my trucks and my B40 test bottle last night. Everything was good this morning. There was no gel at the bottom of the test bottle anymore. The B40 was cloudy (i.e. could not see thru it) but seemed to flow without any issues. There were no visible solid chuncks, just a foggy and slightly more viscous liquid.
The B20 Test bottle looked good as always.
I think I will try to put the B40 test bottle with the Howies Antigel back into my Freezer tonight to see if the B40 with the Howies Antigel will stay liquid and maintain its CFPP at 20 deg F. Freezer runs at 20 deg F.
The truck ran fine this morning and seeing that I am using a 2 micron filter the CFPP (Cold Flow Filter Plugging Point) of the B40 is still ok.
Note, I did not top up my tanks, I decide to try the antigel route to see how it would work out. It worked from what I have seen sofar.
Thanks for all the help,
Seb.....
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 26,337
Likes: 12
From: Paradise Found!
I ordered a 32 oz bottle of Technol B100 for Biodiesel yesterday from here: http://www.technol.com/Their web site says it will lower the cloud point of B-100 by 30 deg. Will post the results of my testing here when I complete them.
FABMANDELUX.
FABMANDELUX.
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Joe Kucinski
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,570
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From: South Texas Coast
Fab
Some more thoughts on purification of glycerol.
The first thing you should do is get ph as close to 7 as possible. Slightly below will be ok. Titrate with HCl that will do the trick and result in NaCl + KCl + H2O.
The next step is to begin to seperate the water. Taking advantage of differences in physical characteristics will help.
First I would try to seperate by chilling the mixture Glycerol melts/solidifies at about 18 C of course H2O melts at 0 C so chilling the mixture to just above 0 C should allow you to decant (pour off) the water and hopefully a lot of the NaCl and KCl.
Next I would fire up that still and try some fractional distillation. Glycerol boils at about 290 C so by heating to just over 100 C you should drive off more water but this method will leave the NaCl and KCl behind and may result in the loss of some Glycerol.
By removing a large portion of the contaminants before the semi permeable membrane filter you will reduce pressure on the filter, which is an inherently slow process.
BTW you might think about incorporating this process into the commercial BD plants you are designing. Make it an optional additional profit center.
Of course the recovery of NaCL and KCL to sell as road salt also has potential.
Some more thoughts on purification of glycerol.
The first thing you should do is get ph as close to 7 as possible. Slightly below will be ok. Titrate with HCl that will do the trick and result in NaCl + KCl + H2O.
The next step is to begin to seperate the water. Taking advantage of differences in physical characteristics will help.
First I would try to seperate by chilling the mixture Glycerol melts/solidifies at about 18 C of course H2O melts at 0 C so chilling the mixture to just above 0 C should allow you to decant (pour off) the water and hopefully a lot of the NaCl and KCl.
Next I would fire up that still and try some fractional distillation. Glycerol boils at about 290 C so by heating to just over 100 C you should drive off more water but this method will leave the NaCl and KCl behind and may result in the loss of some Glycerol.
By removing a large portion of the contaminants before the semi permeable membrane filter you will reduce pressure on the filter, which is an inherently slow process.
BTW you might think about incorporating this process into the commercial BD plants you are designing. Make it an optional additional profit center.
Of course the recovery of NaCL and KCL to sell as road salt also has potential.
Last edited by Phydeaux88; Nov 1, 2006 at 10:13 AM.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 26,337
Likes: 12
From: Paradise Found!
Originally Posted by Phydeaux88
Fab
Some more thoughts on purification of glycerol.
The first thing you should do is get ph as close to 7 as possible. Slightly below will be ok. Titrate with HCl that will do the trick and result in NaCl + KCl + H2O.
The next step is to begin to seperate the water. Taking advantage of differences in physical characteristics will help.
First I would try to seperate by chilling the mixture Glycerol melts/solidifies at about 18 C of course H2O melts at 0 C so chilling the mixture to just above 0 C should allow you to decant (pour off) the water and hopefully a lot of the NaCl and KCl.
Next I would fire up that still and try some fractional distillation. Glycerol boils at about 290 C so by heating to just over 100 C you should drive off more water but this method will leave the NaCl and KCl behind and may result in the loss of some Glycerol.
By removing a large portion of the contaminants before the semi permeable membrane filter you will reduce pressure on the filter, which is an inherently slow process.
BTW you might think about incorporating this process into the commercial BD plants you are designing. Make it an optional additional profit center.
Of course the recovery of NaCL and KCL to sell as road salt also has potential.
Some more thoughts on purification of glycerol.
The first thing you should do is get ph as close to 7 as possible. Slightly below will be ok. Titrate with HCl that will do the trick and result in NaCl + KCl + H2O.
The next step is to begin to seperate the water. Taking advantage of differences in physical characteristics will help.
First I would try to seperate by chilling the mixture Glycerol melts/solidifies at about 18 C of course H2O melts at 0 C so chilling the mixture to just above 0 C should allow you to decant (pour off) the water and hopefully a lot of the NaCl and KCl.
Next I would fire up that still and try some fractional distillation. Glycerol boils at about 290 C so by heating to just over 100 C you should drive off more water but this method will leave the NaCl and KCl behind and may result in the loss of some Glycerol.
By removing a large portion of the contaminants before the semi permeable membrane filter you will reduce pressure on the filter, which is an inherently slow process.
BTW you might think about incorporating this process into the commercial BD plants you are designing. Make it an optional additional profit center.
Of course the recovery of NaCL and KCL to sell as road salt also has potential.
FABMANDELUX.
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,570
Likes: 0
From: South Texas Coast
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
I just heard back from a company in Salem, Or. I made an offer on 2 commericial reflux stills, one 10Kw, and One 5Kw. Long story short....They took my offer! $350 for BOTH......Am I good or what...
FABMANDELUX.
FABMANDELUX.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,509
Likes: 3
From: Ladner, British Columbia
Anti Gel Additive
Well, put both my B20 and B40 with the Howies AntiGel into the freezer overnight.
The last time I did this with the B40 without the Howies it turned into a solid semi-hard margerine that would break into clumps when you tried to squeeze it.
With the Howies AntiGel additive it stayed a two phase liquid, the top inch of the bottle was clear oil, the bottom of the bottle was cloudy gel-like. When I gave the bottle a shake it quickly turned into a slightly viscous mix that flowed readily. It had a "grainy" look to it. Not sure if the grainy structure would create problems with my 2 micron Racor Filter set-up.
The B20 without the Howies antigel actually did slightly worse than the B40 with the Howies antigel additive. At first appearance it looked like it had set up as margerine, but just turning the bottle upside down it started to flow.
Once I gave both bottles a shake they both looked the same; i.e. a "grainy" looking, viscous, cloudy liquid that flowed readily.
Just a recap, my Freezer runs at 20 deg. F, and my Biodiesel is made from Soybean oil.
What are the conclusion from all this:
As for me, it usually never dips below 25 deg. F around southern BC so I will keep running B40 with some Howies Antigel and see how things go this winter.
Good for the economy, Good for the environment, --->> Drive BIODIESEL,
Sebastian
The last time I did this with the B40 without the Howies it turned into a solid semi-hard margerine that would break into clumps when you tried to squeeze it.
With the Howies AntiGel additive it stayed a two phase liquid, the top inch of the bottle was clear oil, the bottom of the bottle was cloudy gel-like. When I gave the bottle a shake it quickly turned into a slightly viscous mix that flowed readily. It had a "grainy" look to it. Not sure if the grainy structure would create problems with my 2 micron Racor Filter set-up.
The B20 without the Howies antigel actually did slightly worse than the B40 with the Howies antigel additive. At first appearance it looked like it had set up as margerine, but just turning the bottle upside down it started to flow.
Once I gave both bottles a shake they both looked the same; i.e. a "grainy" looking, viscous, cloudy liquid that flowed readily.
Just a recap, my Freezer runs at 20 deg. F, and my Biodiesel is made from Soybean oil.
What are the conclusion from all this:
- I can run straight B40 as long as the ambient temperature in my area stays above 30 deg. F.
- I can run straight B20 as long as the ambient temperature in my area stays above 25 deg. F.
- With Howies antigel additive it looks like I would be save to run B40 down to 25 deg. F ambient. If I feel lucky I could run it down to 20F, the problem will be if I let the truck sit for long periods of time at 20F I think I probably would run into trouble as I may collect some thicker gel at the bottom of my tank that probalby would plug my 2 micron filters.
- I have not tried it but from what I have seen from my tests it probably would be ok to run B20 with Howies Antigel down to 20 deg. F ambient.
As for me, it usually never dips below 25 deg. F around southern BC so I will keep running B40 with some Howies Antigel and see how things go this winter.
Good for the economy, Good for the environment, --->> Drive BIODIESEL,
Sebastian
Elder User
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 621
Likes: 1
From: Near the ocean
Hey Fabmandelux. I read in one of your posts that you would educate me on making BD. I went to the posts concerning "snake oil" and lost my place with you. I live on east coast of Florida and there are no BD stations around so I am going to learn how to make BD using WVO from the local restaurants. Any SIMPLE info I can download would be great. I'm not a chemist so please keep it simple. Thanks.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 26,337
Likes: 12
From: Paradise Found!
Originally Posted by Tom D
Hey Fabmandelux. I read in one of your posts that you would educate me on making BD. I went to the posts concerning "snake oil" and lost my place with you. I live on east coast of Florida and there are no BD stations around so I am going to learn how to make BD using WVO from the local restaurants. Any SIMPLE info I can download would be great. I'm not a chemist so please keep it simple. Thanks.
, And our little biodiesel forum! I'll be glad to point you in the right direction. For all the latest and best info on making Biodiesel start here first: http://www.biodieselcommunity.org Once you have a working understanding of the process and the "lingo", the next best thing is to buy "girlmarks" book [you'll find links to the book on that site]. Then read, read, read! Making bio is not hard at all, making GOOD bio requires a little time and an attention to detail. If you have any questions feel free to post them here and one of us will try and answer them for you.If you are handy, have access to some basic tools, you can order a kit for around $250-$400 and be up and running in a weekend. If you can weld and are a good "scrounger" you could build a processer for less than $200. Do a little searching on this forum of past postings and you'll discover some of the things some of us have done to improve our processers.
Good luck! And keep us informed of your progress.
FABMANDELUX.