steel shim help!!!
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steel shim help!!!
okay, we just installed a set of the shims in a buddies 390 and fired it up and low and behold to my horror i found a water leak somewhere.... can't tell where but it's coming off the pan rail and i' got a bad feeling it's from the head-block mating surface with the steel shim... i sprayed the gaskets and block as well as the heads with the copper spray gasket and then torqued the heads in factory sequence from 20-95 in 5 ft/lb increments.... anybody got any suggestions? can i just re-torque the steel shims for a precautionary measure or is it worth the hassle, we only ran the motor for 5 minutes.... any help would be great. i think it's a gasket change but i hope some one else has a easy cheater trick out there!!!!
Post Fiend
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Iowa
Are you sure it's not the intake manifold gasket? Those are notorious for leaking.
Are you sure the deck and heads were straight? Steel shim gaskets are sensitive to this. Sure you got all the crud cleaned off before installation?
How many coats did you give 'em? Two coats generally works best, and letting the stuff get tacky before installation helps.
Try retorquing it first.
Are you sure the deck and heads were straight? Steel shim gaskets are sensitive to this. Sure you got all the crud cleaned off before installation?
How many coats did you give 'em? Two coats generally works best, and letting the stuff get tacky before installation helps.
Try retorquing it first.
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its leaking below the headers so i'd bet a case of cold ones its the head gaskets... he just had the block and heads checked and i scotch-brited the heck outta everything so it we clean and shiny... i only did one heavy coat and let it tack for 10 minutes before i installed, i actually read the directions- not a normal process for me... LOL i think it's a retorque and cross the fingers show... otherwise i think the heads are coming off..
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From: North Carolina
Originally Posted by fordraceboy
its leaking below the headers so i'd bet a case of cold ones its the head gaskets... he just had the block and heads checked and i scotch-brited the heck outta everything so it we clean and shiny... i only did one heavy coat and let it tack for 10 minutes before i installed, i actually read the directions- not a normal process for me... LOL i think it's a retorque and cross the fingers show... otherwise i think the heads are coming off..
Please let me know what you find out. I am getting ready to start putting my motor together and I have to use these head gaskets (aka shims). I have heard good and bad things about them, but to get my QUENCH right I have to use em.
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Post Fiend
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From: "Islander"
pbear, be careful as I went thru two sets of shim gaskets, first leaked within a month on factory machined surfaces. Second time I milled the heads and block just to get a finish (.005" each), heads weeped 8 months later. This was with copper paint and Hi-Tac coated gaskets. I cut the block .020" for a above deck piston of .008" for a .033" quench on composition gaskets.
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
Last edited by "Beemer Nut"; Apr 29, 2006 at 11:04 PM.
Needsmorecoffee.
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From: CT
I know you said the shop checked the surfaces but did you both also check them? I always double check the shops work and it's easy for them to say "yes we did" and they might have missed it. If the mating surfaces are uneven that's the #1 cause for leaks. How bad was the leaking? A drip...lots of drips.....flood!
G.
G.
Last edited by FFR428; Apr 30, 2006 at 07:12 AM.
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a few drips around the front middle two head bolts on the passenger side a a drip or two around the second from the front head bolt on the driver side.... not too bad so i'm hoping for a retorque!!!!! and no i din't check them.. the shop that did the work is very meticulous and i've never had a problem with him before- he's done 3 motors worth of machine work for me and all my friends use him- if i gotta pull em though you can bet i'll double check... like being late helps though... LOL
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From: North Carolina
Originally Posted by Beemer Nut
pbear, be careful as I went thru two sets of shim gaskets, first leaked within a month on factory machined surfaces. Second time I milled the heads and block just to get a finish (.005" each), heads weeped 8 months later. This was with copper paint and Hi-Tac coated gaskets. I cut the block .020" for a above deck piston of .008" for a .033" quench on composition gaskets.
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
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Post Fiend
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From: "Islander"
I ended up with Fel-Pro 1020 gaskets on three builds besides the 410 years ago without any water leak or compression problems. These days it seems Victor's are the hot setup. Harold Souza one of a few private racers sponsered by Ford in the 60's told me over the years the steel shim gaskets were a short lived gasket for drag racing, not a long term 100K mile motor. I was stubbornuand had failures with steel 427 shim gaskets on the street until I went to a compositoin gasket. Sealing is number one as well the proper quench to build a great motor.
.....=o&o>......
.....=o&o>......
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: North Carolina
Originally Posted by Beemer Nut
pbear, be careful as I went thru two sets of shim gaskets, first leaked within a month on factory machined surfaces. Second time I milled the heads and block just to get a finish (.005" each), heads weeped 8 months later. This was with copper paint and Hi-Tac coated gaskets. I cut the block .020" for a above deck piston of .008" for a .033" quench on composition gaskets.
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
Intake needed cutting also for fit. No problems after 250K miles.
.....=o&o>.....
.008 above the top of the block? Then you used the Felpro gaskets which are .040 - .042 thick? With no clearence problems?
What lift cam are you using if you don't mind me asking.
Are the Mr. Gaskets gaskets good? Part number 5790.
Head Gaskets, Ultra Seal, 4.400 in. Bore, .038 in. Compressed Thickness
Last edited by pbear6969; May 1, 2006 at 04:30 PM.
New User
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By the way Many years ago before modern gaskets and sealers, Grease... yep regular grease was spread all over steel shim head gaskets. I never saw one leak done this way....I believe somehow the grease alows the gasket to move around and compress nicely to allow the surfaces to mate properly.
Post Fiend
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From: "Islander"
pbear;
That was a 410 build for a friends 4x4, 427 LR's with a solid Crane cam 344361, 294/294, 227/227 @ .050", .523" lift and 66* overlap.
After cleaning a used .041" gasket, adding soft springs and model clay the motor was rotated and clay checked for piston / valve clearance.
I would use a juice cam if it were my motor as a daily driver.
.....=o&o>.....
That was a 410 build for a friends 4x4, 427 LR's with a solid Crane cam 344361, 294/294, 227/227 @ .050", .523" lift and 66* overlap.
After cleaning a used .041" gasket, adding soft springs and model clay the motor was rotated and clay checked for piston / valve clearance.
I would use a juice cam if it were my motor as a daily driver.
.....=o&o>.....
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: North Carolina
Originally Posted by fireater
by the way i am looking for steel shim head gaskets what part number are they?
The cam I was going to use was the 33-240-4 Comp 292H cam. 292/292 244/244 @50 560 lift
I think I might go with the Mr. Gasket head gaskets I listed and cut the block to give me an above deck of .005. WHich would make it a 33 quench if I figure it right. That would give me a 10.462 Dynamic and a 8.467 Static. I am just concerned about the clearance issue!
Post Fiend
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From: "Islander"
pbear;
your cam is about the same as a 344361 but more lift by .030" app.
I would reverse you dynamic and static numbers you posted, LOL.
If it's a daily driver remember $3.39 a gallon and still rising.
I went from S.F. to Shasta lake pulling a (dinky) 14' aluminum boat, trailer with a 15 HP Mercury and 30 gallon fuel tanks, up 13.91 mpg, return 14.16 mpg. A 68 CS, 255K mile 414, 270/290 CJ cam, C-6, 3.54's, 12.00 x 33 x 16.5 rears, 63 mph up and 67 back. Granted a dead cam by todays specs but installed over 19 years ago returns fuel mileage.
.....=o&o>.....
your cam is about the same as a 344361 but more lift by .030" app.
I would reverse you dynamic and static numbers you posted, LOL.
If it's a daily driver remember $3.39 a gallon and still rising.
I went from S.F. to Shasta lake pulling a (dinky) 14' aluminum boat, trailer with a 15 HP Mercury and 30 gallon fuel tanks, up 13.91 mpg, return 14.16 mpg. A 68 CS, 255K mile 414, 270/290 CJ cam, C-6, 3.54's, 12.00 x 33 x 16.5 rears, 63 mph up and 67 back. Granted a dead cam by todays specs but installed over 19 years ago returns fuel mileage.
.....=o&o>.....
Last edited by "Beemer Nut"; May 1, 2006 at 11:46 PM.