We can "educate" all we want but Ford is a business and if they don't want to play the game they're going to get burnt.

 

My loyalty to Ford is as great as their loyalty to me. As long as their cars do what I want them to do, I'll keep buying them. I don't believe for a moment that Ford cares about me in any personal fashion, and I don't consider Ford a personal friend. I've had one instance already where Ford, or at least one of their dealers, was quite willing to screw me. Nothing came of it, but if it ever does happen, I'll be looking elsewhere for a car. There's plenty of other companies that want my money too.

I'd buy new Fords more often if they offered something I want more often. I really like the Courier that they sell in Mexico (and pretty much everywhere except here under different names), and I have no desire to buy a $35K SUV. Until they offer something like that, I'll buy my wife a new car every few years, keep driving my old Tracer, and picking up used ones every so often like my truck.

I think Ford and pretty much every other American car company would be better off to get rid of the dealership network and just sell them directly. Set up some service centers or similar for repair work. Cut out the dealers and all that crap, save the customer some money and a lot of hassle and still make more profit per car.

 

That would be great. If did that, I'd also want to be able to order a truck and add single options, not packages. I want a big engine and 4x4. I don't really need carpet and I sure don't need heated seats or stuff like that.

 

OKST1, yes I have seen the zephyr, that , and the LS were a step in the right direction, now if they would give the town car some style, and build one, or two more sports sedans, give them a manual trans option, and some real power, caddy and benz would have some competition. all my family as far back as I can remember has drove fords, grandpa's tractor was even a ford, my sons drive fords. my first vehicle was a well used 1950 ford p/u witha flat head 6, and 3 speed on the floor, that truck will live forever in my memory, I could do anything with that ole truck. My dad use to tell me that I could take that truck places, that most people wouldn't try to drag a chain through, we lived in the mountains of W,Va at the time. Ford is more than just are car to us, it's a connection to our past, to better, and simpler times. Ford is an american icon, and I can never remember a time that there wasn't a ford parked outside of our house. My dads pention, and alot of our friends living depends on ford doing well, and if let up to me, they will, I buy all I can afford ha ha! I just want to see some exciting products, the fussion plateform is a good start.

 

i looked at the Zephyr at the car show, nice car but has no power (215 hp ). pretty much every other car in its class out powers it by 50+ hp. if they gave it a 270 hp engine it could compete. the LS is also a nice car but the wife DOES NOT want a rwd car. the ls is also pretty dated, its been around for what 6-7 years.

 

That is excatly what I was talking about in an earlier reply...

I you test driven the Zephyr that you say it has no power???

I'm pretty sure this engine has more torque and more "usable" horsepower than the engines you are comparing it to...

 

You can't force people to learn. People who post here are not average Americans. You & I know a lot more about cars than the average joe. There are people in this country, men and women alike, who think that their 4.0L engine needs 4.0L of gas. That's no joke. You can TRY to educate people, but people just DON'T CARE.

So when you put two spec sheets in front of a buyer, they look at it and see that one has more horsepower. They will deduce that that car is faster. That's a fact, and there's no way you are going to change it. So you might as well adjust your cam timing a few degrees and publish a higher number.

And, BTW, you absolute can compare two different platforms by horsepower. There is a very close (not direct, but very close) between 0-60 times and horsepower per pound of car. That relationship doesn't exist when you examine torque per pound.

I found a study a while ago that proved it, I'll see if I can find it again.

Edit: can't find the study. I used to have the link, but can't find that either.

The idea was that someone took the following numbers from a dozen or so average cars: peak horsepower, peak torque, curb weight, and 0-60 acceleration time.

They charted horsepower per pound vs. 0-60 time. There was a very distinct curve plotted that every car data point was VERY close to.

Then they charted torque per pount vs. 0-60 time. The data points were all over the chart. There was no correlation that jumped out at you.

The moral of the story is that torque/lb can't be used to determine how fast a car will accelerate, but horsepower/lb can do so pretty accurately.

 

Because they didn't take gearing into account.

Interesting concept though... I'd love to see that article.

 

Torque and shift points play a huge role in acceleration, that is probably why it is hard to chart compared to the horsepower chart...

 

It's true, the fussion, zephyr, and milan could stand a power increase no matter how you slice it, but thats where the 3.5 will come in. The 3.0 is just a holdover untill developement of the 3.5 was complete. I understand what your saying, take the hemie ram for instance, 345 hp compared to fords 5.4 at 300 hp, very impressive!! Untill you look at the big piture, look at the amount of torque the 5.4 puts out at a lower rpm, so which is the better truck motor? Most people would say the hemie, cause it's got more hp, when infact the 5.4 has more torque at a lower rpm, which is more desirable in a truck. Also, every 200 pounds of wieght, is like deducting 10 hp. The ford zx2, and focus will run against the rt neon, the cavalier and honda's with a 150 to 160 hp, and hold there own, because ford designed thier engine with lowend torque. The higher hp will eventually catch you, but off the line it's all ford. Torque = 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear, hp = 4th, and 5th, as a good way of putting it. The honda si puts out a 190 hp, but only something like 135 foot pounds, the focus st will own it in short burst's. People need to look at torque, and where it peaks as well as hp to make a balanced decission on a particular engine. Torque is what gets the weight of a vehicle moving from a dead stop, thats as impotant, as how fast you get there. Ford does verywell on the torque of thier engines, more so than the hp side at times.

 

"O YEAH", what I meant about the weight = hp, is like if you had lets say a zx2 at around 3000 pounds, the car would be quicker with just you in the car, compared to you, and a passenger. Every 200 pounds added, is like losing 10 hp, in case you didn't understand what I meant. If you deducted 10 hp for every 200 pounds of car weight, you would have negitive hp, that wouldn't be good hee hee !

 

we haven't driven any of them yet but i can tell you from the test reports i have read every car i am looking at would leave the Zephyr in its dust. in test reports about the Zephyr (Edmunds and Car & Driver) they describe it as anemic, torquerexic, the not rod linclon, as fun to drive as a sofa, and a car for the seniors like alan greenspan and george burns....no thanks

 

Lincoln Zephyr 221 hp

Competition
Jaguar X-Type 227 hp
Mercedes C-Class 215 hp
Audi A4 200 hp
BMW 3-Series 184 hp
Cadillac CTS 210 hp

 

Why is their all of this talk about hp? If you drive a car and it gets you from point A to B and has enough get up and go to get you on the interstate, who cares how many hp it has? I really doubt if there is any single car sold today that won't do the trick. You aren't going to be pulling a big trailer with the thing anyway.

 

Good point, the speed limit in most places is still 55, unless you get out on the interstate, then it's only 65, or 70.