While searching last night for a supplier of Autolite main jets, I came across this article:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...earth/me2.html
It talks about engine modifications needed to run alcohol. While I've been collecting parts for a rebuild of my 292, there has been a nagging question regarding the availability and price of gasoline once it is finished. Adding to the concern is the escalating price of gasoline, and increased enthusiasm for alcohol fuel. So I bookmarked the article after scanning through it.

Are these old motors going to work with 20% or more ETOH? Several things really caught my attention. First was the compression ratio. I think they were talking about an ideal of 12:1. Using the auto calculator, if .060 metal is surfaced from a 113 style head to get a 62cc combustion chamber, and quench is .042, on a 305 cu. in. motor with flattops you come up with 9.9:1 . How would that work with alcohol, and with that small a combustion chamber?

I also noted the enlargement of main metering jets which is necessary. It called for an increase in jet size of 20-40%, which seems like it would take a big bite out of fuel mileage.

Will a performance cam as currently configured be compatible with alcohol?

 

Ive glanced thru some web comments and they all say to expect a 15-25% reduction in mileage along with a hotter running engine. Save a tree, go broke in the process.

Not in MY Y block they wont!

 

46yblock,
Here in Brazil the gasoline has about 20% of sugar cane alcohol. All y-blocks I know run perfectly with this gas here.
Also, there was one version of the 292 that actually ran only on alcohol. It had a compression ratio of about 11:1. I can get some specs of the 302w that ran on alcohol, if you'd like to check something out... I don't have anything on the alcohol 292 right now.
Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)

 

Lobo, I was thinking bout you Brazilians when writing out the post and would like to see the 302 specs. IF E85 becomes the norm around here in the not too distant future, it would be nice to know that the Y could survive.
I saw a report last week that said Brazil is moving towards independence from foreign oil, utilizing sugar cane ETOH. It sounds like your Y's may be facing the same dilemma as ours, if the alcohol percentage of fuel goes way up.

 

46yblock,

I’ve just found my service booklet about the alcohol 302s. It’s in Portuguese, but I can either email it to you and I’ll translate whatever you would like to know, or I could post here the specs about that engine. Either way is fine. It’s your choice.

When I rebuilt my 292 about a year ago, I was considering converting it to alcohol. I know quite a few Ys running on alcohol without problems. I even thought about an intake manifold for the alcohol version, but I decided to keep it running on gasoline when the alcohol price went up. It’s cheaper to run on gasoline right now.
Alcohol engines work quite well, as long as you don’t let them sit for a long while. Alcohol carburetors have a special finish (sort of a chrome finish, I don’t know it’s name in English. In Portuguese it’s called bicromatização), and alcohol corrodes that finish over the time. Then, the loose particles will enter the jets, and you will have quite a few headaches at least. Using alcohol on a carburetor that hasn’t been treated with that special finish, will corrode it’s body faster than you think. I might have a couple old alcohol carbs around here. I’ll try to post a picture, so you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about.
We had several alcohol cars, and right now I have a 1988 alcohol C**** car, with a 250 (straight 6). It’s my daily driver right now (I’m working on the F100 and on the Galaxie). It runs better than the gasoline version. Starts right up even on very cold days, and, besides that, the exhaust vapors smell very good too.

Also, a friend of mine has a Galaxie with a 292 and he uses a natural gas system. It’s not as good as alcohol or gasoline, but it runs fine on natural gas too.

So, I guess the y-blocks will run on just about anything. Even on paint thinner (believe me, I knew a body shop owner who did that a couple times). I guess there’s nothing to worry about.

I’m sorry for the long post and any spelling errors. For some weird reason, my Portuguese gets worse everyday, and so does my English... I believe I've been smelling too much of that alcohol exhaust vapor...

Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)

 

Alcohol can take high compression, and the best efficiency will be gotten out of it when the compression ratio is in the 12 to 14:1 range, but this doesn't mean that they will run poorly at a lower compression ratio. I think it would be more accurate to say that they will run well at a lower (~8:1) or higher compression ratio, but that they will run more efficiently at a high ration supported by the fuel.

I read all these statements in car magazine articles and hotrodding books about how engines were designed back in the late 40s and early 50s to take advantage of high octane WW2 develped fuels. The ratio I hear most often is 12:1. That said, it is now common knowledge that the original design of the SBC and BB Mopar engines chambers will actually lose power above 10.5:1 or so, because the popup needed to get higher ratios makes burning less efficient. There is a point of dimishing returns here that is dependent on the chamber. Remember that chamber design didn't really get sophisticated and scientific until after port flow characteristics were well understood, and racers needed to turn to another avenue of technology to get an advantage. Practically, with G heads and with flat tops, we are probably in the 10.5:1 max zone anyway, so I'm thinking that the Y design (the parts we have to work with) would be the limiting factor regarding the optimal compression.

Of course, supercharging is always a way of raising the effective compression of the engine, so if efficiency is the goal, it should be obtainable, and here the big iron in the block makes the Y ideal, I think.

But regarding carburetion, main jets will work, but there is more to be done. When the amount of ethanol gets to a certain point, the characteristics of the fuel will change enough that just main jets (which may actually be significant in part of normal driving, depending on use -- se a chart that shows what systems are active in an engine's operating range) being changed won't suffice. The transition and idle circuits, along with the power circuit will need attention, as will the accellerator pump and shooters. This could involve the bleeds and even the holes in the emulsifier tubes. Here, it may be well to recall that ethanol has a different vicosity than gas. I don't think that these problems are insurmoutable at all, and it would be reasonable to modify the carb at home with home tools (like wire drills, small reamers, and a pin vise). I would choose a carb for which extra parts were avalable, so that if something was messed up (like a metering block, emulsifier tube, or main jet bleed), the whole project could continue.

Finally, neoprene instead of rubber -- ethanol will be hard on some rubberized parts and corrosion of metal might be a problem if things sit around much. For instance, if you could run gas thru it before letting it sit for long periods, that might be a good thing.

 

Thanks for the responses. Lobo, just post it here, maybe others will be interested. I would like to know the compression ratio, valve sizes, combustion chamber size, cam specs, timing, were they carbureted?, mpg, and anything else you or others think important.
Those 292s on alcohol must have been the ones with popup pistons. I saw a picture of one of the popups recently.
It sounds like aluminum intakes arent compatable with alcohol if its going to eat up a carburetor. What in the 292 is rubber? The only thing that comes to mind is the tip of the float needle and it may be neoprene. Valve seals are away from the fuel, fuel lines.
My plan is going to be to come as close to 10:1 as possible. There will have to be a lot removed from the heads to get there though! Also to down size the cam in lift and duration. Minimum quench.

 

Viton is usually used in soft float valve tips.

The most vulnerable rubberized part is the fuel pump diaphragm. Those in cold weather who use "heat" (an alcohol-based product) commonly experience failure here.

Another place is the power valve diaphragm found in most Holleys and Autolites, along with 2v and 1v Rochesters and some other carbs. Piston actuated power valves like in QJets, and Carter 4vs don't have this problem (tho aluminum AFB-AVS designs may have their own issues. Can't say about the T-Quad's resin bowl, tho.)

Accellerator pumps in Holleys and Autolites are an issue. I can't say what the alcohol might do to leather in piston-type pumps. Other piston type pumps may have a neoprene or rubber type cup on them -- can't say for sure.

Some Holleys use a check ball for the accellerator pump, others use a rubber-like check valve. Don't know what it is made out of, tho.

Remember that ethanol LOVES water (which is why ethanol is almost never pure, e.g., Everclear) and that the water will settle to the bottom of a tank or bowl. This can be fun in cold climates, for anything that sits will find water freezing in the low spots, commonly accellerator pumps.

If you live in a high-humidity area where the possibility of condensation occurs, this could be something to think about.

 

Aluminum intakes work perfectly. The problem with the alcohol is if stays in the same place for a long time. Direct contact, like in a carburetor bowl. Since no fuel stays in the intake after you turn the engine off, there's no problem with that. In fact, the alcohol 302s used aluminum intake, while the gasoline used the cast iron. And, on the alcohol 302, water passes inside the intake instead of oil or exhaust gas. Most alcohol cars have a "water heater" inside the intake manifold.

The converted 292s I know don’t use a different piston. If I'm not mistaken, to make it run on alcohol all we used to do was to take around 1,5mm from the heads, and install the carb. that came with the alcohol 302s. The springs inside the distributor were also changed.

About the needle, I never had problems with that and as wild.bunch said, the tip is Viton. I don't know if our sugar cane alcohol is different, but we use the same materials (fuel lines, injector pump diaphragms, etc) we use for gasoline on alcohol cars. But, as I said, sugar cane alcohol might be different from the alcohol you get in the US.

Here are some specs of the alcohol 302...
If you find any weird numbers, I might have screwed up on the units conversion...

Compression ratio: 11:1
Bore and stroke: 4 x 3
151.53 HP at 4200rpm, w/ 257 ft-lb torque
Thermostat:
Starts to open around 174.92F - 181.94F
Fully open: 201.92F

Idle speed: 600rpm
Initial timing: 10 degrees
Spark plug gap: 0,028" to 0.032"

Combustion chamber size: 67.5 to 70.5

Valve sizes: Adm.: 1,773" to 1,791"
Exh.: 1,442" to 1,460"

I couldn't find any info regarding the camshaft...


If there's anything else you or anybody wants to know, I can try to find out.
I also have some info on the Alcohol Dodge 318, but it's not here right now.

Lucas (Lobo)

 

46: In case you are interested, the SA book Holley Carburetors by Dave Emmanuel has a section on modifying the 4150/4160 4v for alcohol use. He talks about what needs to be done to modify passages, wells, and the passage tubes of the booster venturis to pass the volume of alcohol needed. Also talks about using a .040" shooter and the special hollow screw for the accellerator pump. There's other stuff in there about sizing the fuel pumps to handle the extra volumes, also. He mentions about being careful to operate the rig for the first time under load, because the passages of carbs can limit flow and make the engine lean, causing problems.

If you can find this at a bookstore or other such place, you might want to give the "Race Modifications" section a look, to see if you think it would be a help.

 

I used to have that book, but became so disgusted with my Holley carb I sold both of them! But it wasnt the carbs fault, really, LOL. I'll look for it again.
What I'm doing here is planning this engine rebuild, so that, in case alcohol or E-85 becomes the fuel of the day, I can begin using it without a bunch of additional major motor changes. Also have in mind mpg over horsepower. So far I have a newly turned crank, new main and rod bearings, steel shim head gaskets. The next biggy is having the C2AEs rebuilt.
I didnt record the numbers, but think to get 10:1 compression the combustion chambers have to be something like 63 cc's. That means the 113s milled approx. .054 (intake has to be whittled on too). With that much off, will a shorter duration cam, a 256 degree or 260 degree prevent valve/piston interference and give adequate clearance with a lift of .420? What effect would that grind of cam have on performance given a 10:1 compression? Port velocity really high creating a torque monster? If the answer is yes to the last question, would volumetric efficiency and mpg tend to go down?

And Lobo, thanks for going to the trouble to interpret and record those stats.

 

Hear on the east coast they are taking the mtbe out of the gas and replacing it with 10% ethanol. I think it is a good thing I read in the paper that mtbe is finding its way into a lot of peoples wells. I filled up my 57 with this stuff 2 weeks ago and had no problems so far.

 

Lobo didn't know the english language name of the finish on the carb. From the looks of the Portugese version, I'd guess it's a dichromate finish.

Alcohol yields less energy per unit, so it makes less power. To get the compression ratio up, I'd recommend doing a max bore and stroke. You should be able to get about 325 cubic inches. Combine that with a head like the 113 or the ECZ-G and you'll be in the 10's at least.

I'd make sure you use the big, iron intake - ECZ-B, if I recall correctly. Be sure that the exhaust gas cross-over is cleaned out and working correctly so that the intake runs hot. Alcohol has a higher vaporization temperature, and it takes more alcohol to use up all the Oxygen, so you want to try to heat it in the manifold so that it is fully vaporized. The stoichiometric ratio for alcohol is 9:1, vs 14.7:1 for gasoline.

I've never run alcohol, but it has been on my mind. I have four apple trees and an acre to mow. I've been thinking about distilling apple alcohol to use in one of my mowers. I have some junk tanks to use for the still, I just have to make the time to do it.

 

46:

Have you thought about contacting some custom piston manufacturers to see if they would make some reasonably priced pop-ups for you? This would be an easy way to get the compression up there.

I intend to deck my block, rather than the heads, in order to achieve 0 deck and then use Permatork gaskets. Getting the quench down to the .040" range is what I want, since I will not be spinning the motor very high.

Max efficiency should be very near or at peak torque, because this is where the volumetric efficiency is the highest. This means that the cylinders are being filled at max charge (assuming that the throttle is wide open). Max charge means that the effective compression is the highest. When the vacuum reading is very high, there is very little air/fuel mix to compress and compression is pretty low in these cases. I would be looking to go with a very mild cam to ensure the highest compression possible at slow speeds (which a cam with lots of overlap won't give).

I would doubt that, with any mild cam that you would run into any valve/piston interference, but you could always put some clay on a piston and find out by pre-assembling the motor with one cylinder, if you are worried.

 

Distilling should be legal. There are 3 acres of grapes here and I stopped drinking wine(or anything else). So there are 300 gallons or so of wine that could be stilled.
.040 quench is my plan too. Pistons will be in the hole whatever amount is necessary to make up the diff. using a steel gasket. The plan to surface heads .060 may have to be modified to only .045. Not sure and might have to have the 113s sonic tested. Either way surfacing of the intake flanges a corresponding amount will also need done. As for cam I heard Schumann's has some grinds based upon 1957. I'm going to get one after the lifters I bought have been paid for. Bore will either be 3.83 or 3.84. Custom pistons and stroker kits are out of range price wise.
With the 3.84 bore, surfacing heads .060, and .040 quench I think the CR is right at 10:1.
Rather than take the present motor out and go back through it, I'm going to build the C2AE block I have, take the 113s off of the current 56 motor. And, if the C2AE doesnt sonic out adequate thickness for the bore, then it will be back to the 56 block.
With the minimum quench and 10:1, wouldnt any tendency to detonate be reduced by running 5 or 10% alky gasohol?