Engine Swap
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,351
Likes: 1
From: Escondido, CA
Yeah that one gets in the way on the 64. The engines were front and rear mount only remember for the 292 in 1964. I welded in a new universal crossmember the supports the engine and also added the transmission mount as well. I have no issues with frame flex except where my bed pops up from a rusted out floor board. Other then that nothing to worry about.
Now it would be a totally different story if my truck were a 65 and later. If you look at my gallery you will see what changed between 64 and 65.
Now it would be a totally different story if my truck were a 65 and later. If you look at my gallery you will see what changed between 64 and 65.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 1
From: East Central Florida
Hey Tiremine ,
Airharley is right there's a world of difference between 57-64s & 65-79s.
So No. 57-64 frames don't have radius bars, they use the four leaf springs & a Live single I beam. 57-64 frames will not flex due to their design.
Maybe spreader on a 65 & up is about under the firewall more or less, but it does not need to be removed unless 385 series is installed with tranny in place, in which case it must be unbolted then re-installed or the flexing occurs. I distinguish between the spreader and the tie brace in the 57-64 chassis. . .
Radius bars angle in towards rear bracket on the rail sidewall. In hard driving, frame will flex making handling "spongey feeling" & sloppy. . . .don't ask how I learned about that . . . . . . !
FBp
Airharley is right there's a world of difference between 57-64s & 65-79s.
So No. 57-64 frames don't have radius bars, they use the four leaf springs & a Live single I beam. 57-64 frames will not flex due to their design.
Maybe spreader on a 65 & up is about under the firewall more or less, but it does not need to be removed unless 385 series is installed with tranny in place, in which case it must be unbolted then re-installed or the flexing occurs. I distinguish between the spreader and the tie brace in the 57-64 chassis. . .
Radius bars angle in towards rear bracket on the rail sidewall. In hard driving, frame will flex making handling "spongey feeling" & sloppy. . . .don't ask how I learned about that . . . . . . !
FBp
Last edited by FordBoypete; Mar 4, 2006 at 11:57 PM.
4wd Low
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
It depends which FE your building. 352,360,or390 fairly cheap to build. A 427/428 of any variety and your gonna break the bank, esp. a 427. But as for 385 vs. FE series,
......GET REAL !!!! The only FE a 385 series can out perform is a 352,360,or 390. Maybe a 406 if it's got a fouled plug, but you can "FORGET" it if your talking about a
428 PI or CJ/SCJ. As for a 427, you better pull 2 plug wires off of this "wedge" before you break out a 385. By the time this high winding beast hits its 7000-7500 RPM
"cruise" range the 429/460 has slung the crank and rods through the pan. Sure 385's
have a slight advantage in torque, but not much, and it's out of luck in Horses.
Don't get me wrong, if its Ford Blue it's gonna kick some butt.
And F.Y.I.... The FE is about 625-670 lbs. depending on the intake,the 385 720 lbs.
I got this info from the Ford Motorsport webpage. As for transmissions, the 385 series shares the same bolt pattern as the "Cleveland" engine family: 351C, 351/400 modified.
......GET REAL !!!! The only FE a 385 series can out perform is a 352,360,or 390. Maybe a 406 if it's got a fouled plug, but you can "FORGET" it if your talking about a
428 PI or CJ/SCJ. As for a 427, you better pull 2 plug wires off of this "wedge" before you break out a 385. By the time this high winding beast hits its 7000-7500 RPM
"cruise" range the 429/460 has slung the crank and rods through the pan. Sure 385's
have a slight advantage in torque, but not much, and it's out of luck in Horses.
Don't get me wrong, if its Ford Blue it's gonna kick some butt.
And F.Y.I.... The FE is about 625-670 lbs. depending on the intake,the 385 720 lbs.
I got this info from the Ford Motorsport webpage. As for transmissions, the 385 series shares the same bolt pattern as the "Cleveland" engine family: 351C, 351/400 modified.
Last edited by jowilker; Mar 8, 2006 at 07:11 AM.
4wd Low
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by banjopicker66
I must respectfully disagree with a few points.
1. There is no such thing as a Ford "big block." Although used colloquially, it is an old Chevy/GM term used to distinguish between engines of the same displacement but of physically larger sizes. Ford uses the term "family" to differentiate between engine types.
2. The mighty FE is a great engine, and was almost unbeatable as a 427, but that was in race configuration. It is extremely difficult to get a 390 to beef up to 427 specifications. Even getting it to be a 406, a 410 or a 428 can be extraordinarily expensive. Although it is enjoying a great resurgence in popularity and aftermarket parts, the FE family is still 1950s technology, and has those limitations unless you are willing to invest thousands of dollars. Don't get me wrong, I teethed my mechanic skills on the FE, and had one for nearly 30 years in my '66, but unless you are really hot an heavy on one, or already had one in the truck, I would not look at an FE as a replacement.
3. The 385 series is about the best you can get in Ford power. This includes the heavy duty 370, 429 and 460. Contrary to popular opinon, the FE actually outweighs the 460 by over 100 pounds, and is physically larger. The 460 has the lighter weight and smaller size due to advances in metallurgy and casting techniques. (It was the inability to overcome these issues in th '60s with the 427 FE design that led to so many FE 427 engine blocks being rejected for use as 427 engines. Core shift problems required many 427 blocks to be relegated to 390 industrial usage instead. The design improvements in the 385 series engines enabled Ford to use smaller blocks with larger CID capacities.)
4. Stock 460 power is just raw power, and you can get all the power you can handle with simple modifications. The only really necessary modifications to get this power are to put in a straight up timing gear set, and an appropriate camshaft. (I used an RV cam.) FEs cannot touch this kind of power without expensive modifications.
Be sure to cruise the FE and the 385 forums here on FTE. You can get a lot of great information on both to help you decide what you want to do.
Finally, although the FE was available in cars as early as '58, it was not offered in the trucks until '65, so as 66Beater said, any engine choices you make will require you to fabricate or purchase engine and transmission mount kits.
I changed out my 352 to a 460 - and I really like the power. Since I intend to use it occasionally as a work truck, I will need the 460, but in retrospect, it would have been easier to put in a 390 in place of the 352.
Of course, even after having said all this, you may prefer a more econmical engine. It all depends on how you intend to use the truck. Although a 302 is not a suitable truck engine, it can be an appropriate choice if you only want to use it for shows and cruising.
Good luck on your project,and keep us posted on how it goes!
1. There is no such thing as a Ford "big block." Although used colloquially, it is an old Chevy/GM term used to distinguish between engines of the same displacement but of physically larger sizes. Ford uses the term "family" to differentiate between engine types.
2. The mighty FE is a great engine, and was almost unbeatable as a 427, but that was in race configuration. It is extremely difficult to get a 390 to beef up to 427 specifications. Even getting it to be a 406, a 410 or a 428 can be extraordinarily expensive. Although it is enjoying a great resurgence in popularity and aftermarket parts, the FE family is still 1950s technology, and has those limitations unless you are willing to invest thousands of dollars. Don't get me wrong, I teethed my mechanic skills on the FE, and had one for nearly 30 years in my '66, but unless you are really hot an heavy on one, or already had one in the truck, I would not look at an FE as a replacement.
3. The 385 series is about the best you can get in Ford power. This includes the heavy duty 370, 429 and 460. Contrary to popular opinon, the FE actually outweighs the 460 by over 100 pounds, and is physically larger. The 460 has the lighter weight and smaller size due to advances in metallurgy and casting techniques. (It was the inability to overcome these issues in th '60s with the 427 FE design that led to so many FE 427 engine blocks being rejected for use as 427 engines. Core shift problems required many 427 blocks to be relegated to 390 industrial usage instead. The design improvements in the 385 series engines enabled Ford to use smaller blocks with larger CID capacities.)
4. Stock 460 power is just raw power, and you can get all the power you can handle with simple modifications. The only really necessary modifications to get this power are to put in a straight up timing gear set, and an appropriate camshaft. (I used an RV cam.) FEs cannot touch this kind of power without expensive modifications.
Be sure to cruise the FE and the 385 forums here on FTE. You can get a lot of great information on both to help you decide what you want to do.
Finally, although the FE was available in cars as early as '58, it was not offered in the trucks until '65, so as 66Beater said, any engine choices you make will require you to fabricate or purchase engine and transmission mount kits.
I changed out my 352 to a 460 - and I really like the power. Since I intend to use it occasionally as a work truck, I will need the 460, but in retrospect, it would have been easier to put in a 390 in place of the 352.
Of course, even after having said all this, you may prefer a more econmical engine. It all depends on how you intend to use the truck. Although a 302 is not a suitable truck engine, it can be an appropriate choice if you only want to use it for shows and cruising.
Good luck on your project,and keep us posted on how it goes!
"I must disagree with a few of your points."
You have it backwards on the weight issue.An FE with an alum. intake is almost 100 lbs. lighter than a 385 series. I got the info from the Ford Motorsports webpage. Also the 352 was available in the F-450 thru
F-750 as early as 63, maybe even earlier. As for building a 390 to 427
specs, it's not possible without a 427 block, unless you want to spend
4 to 5 grand getting the 390 block re-sleeved. This is where the men left the boys. The 427's bore was a whopping 4.230",the 390 was a 4.050"bore. The closest is a 428 with a 4.130" bore. Even a 428 block could not be bored this big without damaging the cylinder walls. The stroke is the only thing that a 427 shares with the other FE's 3.780".
The 410 Merc and the 428 had the longest stroke at 3.980". All the FE's
had 6.489" rods except the 352 which had 6.540" rods. Either way the short stroke and huge bore is what made the 427 able to kick every-body on the track or street, and lets not forget the whooping it gave the ferraris at Le-mans 2 years in a row. Then if that wasn't bad enough some psycho comes up with the 427 SOHC, and it was either all the other manufactures stay at home or make Ford take the SOHC back
to the shop, so the engine was banned by nearly all factions of racing except NHRA, and it didn't get to race there but a couple of seasons.
As for the 460's "raw power", the 427 came of the assembly line with
410 Hp/single 4 barrel or 425 Hp/dual 4 barrel and that was in 63' You would have to get a 460 crate motor from SVO to get that kind of power.
The only area a 385 beats an FE is your knuckles don't get as beat up
with the 385 as they do with the FE. The 385 requires alot less tuning and it makes a lot less trips to the gas pump. Either one these
engines will require adapters of some sort. The best route for the adapters and crossmember is to get them from Trans-dapt or to look in one of the custom classic truck magazines for an aftermarket parts retailer.
Last edited by jowilker; Mar 8, 2006 at 07:18 AM. Reason: language
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,613
Likes: 6
From: Coal country
Austin: Welcome to FTE! You sure came in with a blast! I welcome your enthusiasm too, as it wakes this board up. Different opinons help keep this board healthy, too. By the way, where are you in GA? I had to move from Augusta a year ago, and miss home terribly.
Your points about the 427 are well made, and yes, the 427 was too good for NASCAR. However, my points about the FE were made on what is popularly available, so I was thinking more on the lines of practical applications rather than ultra high performance engines in a racing environment. More along the lines of what Rusty70F100 has done.
As for horsepower specs, I am convinced that "published figures" are not accurate, but are deliberately skewed. For example, the various 427s were published at 400 - 500 hp (depending on the configuration) in the middle '60s. However, in the late '60s, the 428CJ was underrated at 335 with actual hp at 400. Also, the 428SCJ was again underrated at 335, with actual hp at about 410.
Apparently, the increase in insurance requirements based on hp, the rise in environmental "smog" regulations, the then-newer tax on hp, and other social factors made Ford downgrade their street engines.
This pattern was followed in the 385 series (including the Windsor and the 335s as well). The 429 and 460 hp specs were disappointingly lower from the later '60s through the '70s, mostly for smog reasons, as far as I can tell.
So, with the engines of all families being detuned on both paper and by smog requirements, the '60s specs do indeed seem to show the earlier engines outperforming the later larger ones. With a pre-70's timing set, a proper cam, and other bolt-on inexpensive modifications like headers, the 460 can easily develop over 500 hp. An aluminum intake, high CFM carburator and 3-key roller timing set will cost less than $500, and will really wake up the 385 with stock heads and block.
On the other hand, FEs will take a great deal of expensive modifications to reach that. I don't have precise figures on the FE dollar amounts, but perhaps Rusty70F100 can help us out with details of his very nice 400hp 390.
The 385s have larger dimensions than an FE as well.
460ci, bore x stroke--4.360x3.85
429ci, bore x stroke--4.360x3.59
427ci, bore x stroke--4.23x3.78
These specifications would seem to give the 385 engines better perfomance over the FE - it is too bad they came too late to have the chance to prove themselves side by side.
Weight: The dealer's books show a published weight of a 352 in stock configuration was 750 pounds. That was without air conditioning. So, it appears I am not too far off. I think the lower published weight of the larger bore FEs may be due to less iron in the block perhaps?
I appreciate your comments, along with anyone else's, but I do make this request:
Please do not use offensive language. This is a family oriented board. Most of us do not want to have to censor what we read before we share it with family. Thanks for your help in this.
Again, I really do appreciate you taking the time to counter my posting, and do not take disagreement personally, but inappropriate language has no legitimate place here.
Oh, and KY1963Ford, I hope I haven't hijcked your orignal thread by too much!
Your points about the 427 are well made, and yes, the 427 was too good for NASCAR. However, my points about the FE were made on what is popularly available, so I was thinking more on the lines of practical applications rather than ultra high performance engines in a racing environment. More along the lines of what Rusty70F100 has done.
As for horsepower specs, I am convinced that "published figures" are not accurate, but are deliberately skewed. For example, the various 427s were published at 400 - 500 hp (depending on the configuration) in the middle '60s. However, in the late '60s, the 428CJ was underrated at 335 with actual hp at 400. Also, the 428SCJ was again underrated at 335, with actual hp at about 410.
Apparently, the increase in insurance requirements based on hp, the rise in environmental "smog" regulations, the then-newer tax on hp, and other social factors made Ford downgrade their street engines.
This pattern was followed in the 385 series (including the Windsor and the 335s as well). The 429 and 460 hp specs were disappointingly lower from the later '60s through the '70s, mostly for smog reasons, as far as I can tell.
So, with the engines of all families being detuned on both paper and by smog requirements, the '60s specs do indeed seem to show the earlier engines outperforming the later larger ones. With a pre-70's timing set, a proper cam, and other bolt-on inexpensive modifications like headers, the 460 can easily develop over 500 hp. An aluminum intake, high CFM carburator and 3-key roller timing set will cost less than $500, and will really wake up the 385 with stock heads and block.
On the other hand, FEs will take a great deal of expensive modifications to reach that. I don't have precise figures on the FE dollar amounts, but perhaps Rusty70F100 can help us out with details of his very nice 400hp 390.
The 385s have larger dimensions than an FE as well.
460ci, bore x stroke--4.360x3.85
429ci, bore x stroke--4.360x3.59
427ci, bore x stroke--4.23x3.78
These specifications would seem to give the 385 engines better perfomance over the FE - it is too bad they came too late to have the chance to prove themselves side by side.
Weight: The dealer's books show a published weight of a 352 in stock configuration was 750 pounds. That was without air conditioning. So, it appears I am not too far off. I think the lower published weight of the larger bore FEs may be due to less iron in the block perhaps?
I appreciate your comments, along with anyone else's, but I do make this request:
Please do not use offensive language. This is a family oriented board. Most of us do not want to have to censor what we read before we share it with family. Thanks for your help in this.
Again, I really do appreciate you taking the time to counter my posting, and do not take disagreement personally, but inappropriate language has no legitimate place here.
Oh, and KY1963Ford, I hope I haven't hijcked your orignal thread by too much!
Last edited by banjopicker66; Mar 8, 2006 at 07:34 AM.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 0
From: Southern Alberta
Originally Posted by banjopicker66
Of course, even after having said all this, you may prefer a more econmical engine. It all depends on how you intend to use the truck. Although a 302 is not a suitable truck engine, it can be an appropriate choice if you only want to use it for shows and cruising.
General Banjo, sir!
(salutes)
I repectfully submit that the 302 IS a suitable truck engine sir!
Ford engineers put it in Ford trucks for 19 years sir!
The only engine Ford used longer in trucks was the Flathead V8 sir!
Best truck I ever owned had a 302 sir!
That engine moved my friends and family 8 times sir!
Used that engine again in my current truck sir!
Thousands of Ford trucks still on the road with 302s sir!
Thank you for your attention sir!
(end salute)
Last edited by Ringo Fonebone; Mar 8, 2006 at 08:47 AM.
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Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,613
Likes: 6
From: Coal country
Ringo, I have always enjoyed your humorous posts, and this is no exception. Wish I were a general!
Here are my thoughts on opinions: They are like necessary bodily functions. Everybody has at least two of them, and they all stink - including mine.
I have always thought a truck should be a truck, and that the 302 was barely the bottom choice for truck hauling and so forth.
The later fuel injected and computer controlled 302s do pretty well, I have heard, unless you want the truck to do heavy hauling on a regular basis. I drove a friend's '93 F-150 with a 302, and it really did pretty well, but just couldn't pull well when loaded. Maybe it was that particular truck, but he agreed with me. He is a landscaper, and bought the truck new for the advertised mileage, and has been generally disappointed with performance under load. He has an F-250 with a 351, and feels it is adequate, but sometimes wants more power.
Anyway, the orignal intent of this thread was to suggest a good engine for KY1963FORD's truck. If he wants power, I think the 302 is a bit under the bar, but if he wants to show it off or use it around town, the 302 would make an excellent engine for that purpose.
Again, just my thoughts and opinions - and I know, they stink too!
Here are my thoughts on opinions: They are like necessary bodily functions. Everybody has at least two of them, and they all stink - including mine.
I have always thought a truck should be a truck, and that the 302 was barely the bottom choice for truck hauling and so forth.
The later fuel injected and computer controlled 302s do pretty well, I have heard, unless you want the truck to do heavy hauling on a regular basis. I drove a friend's '93 F-150 with a 302, and it really did pretty well, but just couldn't pull well when loaded. Maybe it was that particular truck, but he agreed with me. He is a landscaper, and bought the truck new for the advertised mileage, and has been generally disappointed with performance under load. He has an F-250 with a 351, and feels it is adequate, but sometimes wants more power.
Anyway, the orignal intent of this thread was to suggest a good engine for KY1963FORD's truck. If he wants power, I think the 302 is a bit under the bar, but if he wants to show it off or use it around town, the 302 would make an excellent engine for that purpose.
Again, just my thoughts and opinions - and I know, they stink too!
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
From: Texas
the 292 you have is a Y block, its not at all the same as the "small block" 289-302 series engines.
There is, however, a 312 version of the Yblock you could rebuild yours as. I don't think they ever used the 312 in a truck, could be a fun project, and it would look stock under the hood.
There is, however, a 312 version of the Yblock you could rebuild yours as. I don't think they ever used the 312 in a truck, could be a fun project, and it would look stock under the hood.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,465
Likes: 0
From: Southern Alberta
A Y-block is a fine and noble motor on it's own. You would normally rebuild one to 312 specifications.. a little heftier version than the 292, used chiefly in Thunderbirds. Great motors, if you saw Overhaulin' last night Chip Foose put one in that model A hot rod he did.
They have a long tradition in our trucks, great choice.
And Banjo.. glad someone GETS my humour once in a while
They have a long tradition in our trucks, great choice.
And Banjo.. glad someone GETS my humour once in a while
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,613
Likes: 6
From: Coal country
Hi, KY1963Ford, I got your PM, and the others have stated the answer correctly. You would be able to rebuild a 292 to a 312, but not to a 302. They are completely different families.
Now your Y-block is nothing to sneeze at, like Ringo noted. After all, they were used in a performance car, the early Thunderbirds! Y-blocks enjoyed a racing and hot-rodding history in the 1950s equal in popularity to the FE's in the 1960s. Tri carb intakes, headers, all those things were perfected for the Y-block just as the FE was beginning to mature. It is too bad that circumstances eclipsed the histories of both the FE and the Y-block.
And finally, for your project, I think keeping it Y-block would be the best decision. Here is why: You will not need to make any modifications to the truck, which will save you a lot of time and frustration now and down the road.
I converted my '66 F-100 from a 352 with 3 speed overdrive to a 460 with C-6 automatic. It was almost a drop in, but not quite. I had to change a few little things, and although the result looks factory, and is easy to use, it took a lot of extra time.
Although I don't regret it, if I had it to do over again, I would have just rebuilt the 390. It would have been cheaper and easier in the long run, with about the same results.
Good luck!
Now your Y-block is nothing to sneeze at, like Ringo noted. After all, they were used in a performance car, the early Thunderbirds! Y-blocks enjoyed a racing and hot-rodding history in the 1950s equal in popularity to the FE's in the 1960s. Tri carb intakes, headers, all those things were perfected for the Y-block just as the FE was beginning to mature. It is too bad that circumstances eclipsed the histories of both the FE and the Y-block.
And finally, for your project, I think keeping it Y-block would be the best decision. Here is why: You will not need to make any modifications to the truck, which will save you a lot of time and frustration now and down the road.
I converted my '66 F-100 from a 352 with 3 speed overdrive to a 460 with C-6 automatic. It was almost a drop in, but not quite. I had to change a few little things, and although the result looks factory, and is easy to use, it took a lot of extra time.
Although I don't regret it, if I had it to do over again, I would have just rebuilt the 390. It would have been cheaper and easier in the long run, with about the same results.
Good luck!
Last edited by banjopicker66; Mar 8, 2006 at 01:25 PM.
Thread Starter
|
Freshman User
Joined: Feb 2006
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thanks for the advice. i want to keep the Y, just dont have much experiance with them. i dont want to go through the hassle of changing out motor mounts and stuff, though i do want to get rid of that P.O.S tranny and go automatic. my first headache though is going to be finding a frame. mine is cracked beyond all repair and the truck looks like the titanic. i am in the hunt for a frame. would like to get one the same year so i dont have to do any mods to it except change out that sucky front axle and go IFS with power steering.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,222
Likes: 1
From: East Central Florida
I had a 300 HP rated Paxton Blown 312 Y block in a 57 Fairlane 300 two door sedan in 57, it was not quick but it was fast. a 312 is only +20 CID bigger than a 292.
I had a 292 that was "built" that ran in 14s in the 50s too, so don't underestimate the potential of those engines.
But if you want to shake, the earth roll up the pavement in smoke, and leave folks saying "I wish I could beat that thing!" Then build a 460 full of the "Blow Tie" Vengence and go out & give lessons to the wannabes' . . . .
If I had to replace a frame that was damaged, I'd upgrade to a later frame make the cab mounts right [you can buy the new pieces to do it] & upgrade the whole truck at the same time. Twin I beam are "OEM IFS".
The later frame takes any of the neat newer engines from a 302 [5.0L] thru a 460 with the whole powertrain as a bolt in using oem/ Script pieces parts and you'd pop that ol' girl from middle of the last century into this century & and a whole new millennium to boot. A newer "Re-Fram Job" would be less work than replacing that old broken frame with a old frame that's not broken, then upgrading the old frame to a fAUX OR PSEUDO new style frame that's really an old frame in disguise. I mean PDB, IFS, Power steering, 11X3" rear brakes, anti sway bars out of the cab fuel tank and on and on and. . . .
FBp
I had a 292 that was "built" that ran in 14s in the 50s too, so don't underestimate the potential of those engines.
But if you want to shake, the earth roll up the pavement in smoke, and leave folks saying "I wish I could beat that thing!" Then build a 460 full of the "Blow Tie" Vengence and go out & give lessons to the wannabes' . . . .
If I had to replace a frame that was damaged, I'd upgrade to a later frame make the cab mounts right [you can buy the new pieces to do it] & upgrade the whole truck at the same time. Twin I beam are "OEM IFS".
The later frame takes any of the neat newer engines from a 302 [5.0L] thru a 460 with the whole powertrain as a bolt in using oem/ Script pieces parts and you'd pop that ol' girl from middle of the last century into this century & and a whole new millennium to boot. A newer "Re-Fram Job" would be less work than replacing that old broken frame with a old frame that's not broken, then upgrading the old frame to a fAUX OR PSEUDO new style frame that's really an old frame in disguise. I mean PDB, IFS, Power steering, 11X3" rear brakes, anti sway bars out of the cab fuel tank and on and on and. . . .
FBp
Last edited by FordBoypete; Mar 8, 2006 at 08:10 PM.