I'm slowly gathering parts together for a rebuild of my '63 292 and was wondering everyone's opinion of the C2AE vs the EBU rods...

There's a couple sets of them on eBay right now....do a search under "ebu rods" or "c2ae rods"...

My goal is to have a nicely rebuilt 292 that I can take to car shows and display some power....I'm going with a mild cam, ECZ-G heads, blue thunder manifold, dual exhaust, etc....nothing insane for racing, just something fun....

Many thanks....

 

The C2AE rods are the best. But for your application I see no problem with the EBU rods. I'm racing a 292 with ebu rods and I'm shifting at 6500 RPMs. So the EBU rods will be fine for your application

Kevin Bigwin.

 

Agreed. I am going with C2AE replacements because that was the closest thing to a set I had. There is still one ebu rod here someone can have if needed. It will be thrown away soon.

 

Mike,
Dont you know better than to throw away vintage parts? Send it to me I'll pay the shipping.

Kevin Bigwin

 

Will do. Send me your address Kevin.
Mike

 

Thanks for the info! As part of a "normal" engine rebuild, would they do anything to the rods?

 

At a bare minimum, they should:

Clean them

Magnaflux the entire rods (check for cracks)

Check the straightness in two dimensions & for twist

Resize the big end & check chamfer, & check the small end (re-bush as required)

Replace the nuts (or at least check them for cracks)


In addition, I personally would....

Replace the entire set of bolts/nuts

Verify the center-to-center dimension & correct it

Spot-face the bolt seats & blend them into the rod & cap


There are other things required, too, as performance goes up. That's why aftermarket rods are so common & popular now- it's not that they are necessarily stronger than a factory rod (although they often are, depending on the rods in question); but it's cheaper to buy new than to rework the old ones. You can even use them in a Y, although you almost certainly will have to grind the rod journals on the crank to suit a different rod & bearing size. Are they necessary? Nope. The Ford rods are fine, especially for what you are looking to do.

 

Wow...thanks for the awesome information. I didn't realize that the rods had a significant role in a rebuild (shows you what I know!)....

Thanks again....

 

As a general rule of thumb, they are the most "stressed" part of the engine. They are constantly switching back and forth between tension & compression as the piston moves up & down. The higher an engine is revved, & the heavier the piston, the greater the forces. However......& it's a big "however"....factory rods (of whatever brand & engine) are better than what they are given credit for being.

By the way, don't feel uneasy about your level of knowledge. You know enough to ask questions & listen, & that's all ya pretty much need for anything in life. (That, & knowing how to filter out B.S.) Seriously, I have been lucky enough to meet & talk with some "big name" engine builders over the last 20 years.....and the absolute best guys are the most humble ones. They NEVER stop asking questions and thinking. They always assume they don't know the best solution, and they never stop looking for it. The arrogant ones have stopped after 98-99%....they win their share of races....but they are not the best. Actually, that kinda holds true for every occupation.

 

I definitely agree with you....

I'm about as far from a mechanic as you can get...my dad was a jet engine mechanic in the Marines and he had muscle cars back when he was young, but I never picked much up of it up from him....I'm a chemist, for crying out loud...I did pick up his love for old cars/trucks, though, and I'm trying to restore my own now ('63 Ford F250 unibody)...I started out not knowing anything. All I did was keep reading and reading, soaking in information....I've gotten to the point now that I'm feeling more comfortable asking questions and I think I'm starting to figure things out, but I have so little practical experience that I'm far from being *confident*. As you said, though, I think it's good to stay humble and prevent confidence from turning into arrogance....

I'm still formulating a blueprint for my engine now (I've been working on it for a few years now...) and I'm slowly assembling parts as I can afford them...I already have my cam/valve springs from Mummert and I bought some ECZ-G heads on eBay. My wish list includes some Red's Headers, that Blue Thunder intake manifold, electronic ignition, roller rockers, and I'm thinking of having Mummert port my heads....I'm going to keep my T98 and switch the gear ratio from 4.60 down to around 3.54 so I can actually use the truck on the highway....but I've sort of been doing all of this in a bubble, so I'll probably be asking more and more questions on here as I get closer to actually buying things. I just want to make sure that everything meshes together. It's like a home entertainment system...I don't want to have a 48" plasma screen with two 2" speakers....

Anyway, thanks for the info....did you look at those rods on eBay? Are they kind of steep in price?

This forum really is a godsend....

 

I trust that you realize the C2AE rods are a bit longer than the EBU as they were designed to be used with the C2AE forged HD crank which had a different journal diameter. About .070" longer if memory serves. This will put your pistons above the deck. No big deal as you can have them cut at the same time the machinest will be zero decking and finish milling.

 

Well, here's the one auction I found: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-...QQcmdZViewItem

I think that's a decent price, IF the work can be trusted. He has an unusual assortment of things for sale; but it might just be a retired machinist making some $$ for extra money. I bought a set of BBC rods from a man doing exactly that, & they were as good or better than most professional shops' work. I suppose you could check with John Mummert to see what price he would quote, but I bet it would be the same or more.

A couple of things to ponder, or post in separate threads to get everyone's thoughts.

1) Might be worth posting your combination separately to get different people's slant on using the G heads. They really have two particular advantages: smaller chambers, & the larger ports/valves. Whether your engine can use the port size or not is a question. Carl (286Merc), who certainly knows as much about the Y as anyone, is a believer in using the ECZ-C heads, or similar, to keep higher velocity, especially at lower RPM, in truck applications. The C heads seem to work pretty well on the average 292. Some of this will depend on your chosen cam; if Mummert knew the details of your setup I'm sure he recommended a suitable lobe centerline & overlap for the Gs.

I would try to achieve a deck height of zero, or possibly even .005 positive (out of the hole), if you will use the composition head gaskets, with the aim of getting around .035 quench distance at TDC. With the G heads, especially if they are milled to true the surface, it will tend to keep you out of detonation. Might find that you can use a little less total timing, too.

Yer a braver person than I to keep the T-98, I intend to make mine "sleep with the fishes", to quote someone on this board. It sounds like you've got a good plan in mind, & unibodys are very cool. Actually, so is being a chemist- ya can make up hydrazine for a fuel additive.

Edit: Just read Carl's post. Depending on what pistons you use, that may be an advantage- most rebuilder pistons have low compression heights & sit far down in the hole. I believe Mummert's hypers are higher to compensate (see the recent deck height thread from scrapperdan).

 

No, I didn't realize that....I think I'm just going to stick with the EBU rods, anyway...

 

Well, I'm not so sure Mummert knew what I was going to use. I talked his ear off and he was probably as confused as I was, but eventually I went with the 264F (0.462" lift). Since I already have the G heads, would it be worth it to switch to the C? I mean, what would be *bad* about staying with the G heads? I'm not looking for perfection....just a nice engine at the end that I can tell stories about and put some time and energy into....you know, the whole journey is more fun than the destination thing...of course, I don't want to do anything really stupid either....maybe I'm just really confused!

Ummm...I have no idea what you're talking about...you've completely lost me. I'm considering having Bob Carlisle do the rebuild since he's not that far away. I'm sure he knows what you're talking about! Seriously, though, explain that it layman's terms....

Since I'm kind of spacing things out, does it make sense to get the heads/valves/etc completely finished (probably by Mummert) and then let them sit there for awhile or should I get the whole thing done at once? I'd rather do it in pieces, but I guess if I have no choice....?

 

1) Bad? Nothing, really. The G heads have the biggest ports & valves & were designed for the 312s and/or higher perf applications; there's some exceptions to that though. I've found some on F-600s. They have the smallest chambers, around 69-70 cc, and make it easier to make higher compression. Therefore they tend to be the most expensive to buy; supply & demand.

The C heads are generally dirt cheap. They work well in trucks, particularly working trucks, because the smaller ports offer higher velocity. Kinda like, if you are trying to force five gallons of water through a pipe, what size pipe will give you more pressure at the outlet- a 24" culvert, or a 5/8" garden hose? This enables the cylinder to be filled more effectively with a small bore size & stroke, especially at low RPM.

In re-reading your posts, though, it sounds like this will be a cruiser, not a work truck; the manual trans will help to ease it off the line; & the 292 is a bigger engine anyway (in terms of a Y). To sum it up, the G heads will work well for you (though the C heads would too). If you paid a high sum for the Gs, maybe it might make sense to try to resell them to make a little $$, & get a pair of C's, or similar. If the Gs were cheap, use 'em.

2) Ok, I'll try. Smack me on the back of the head if I get too lost. Deck height: This refers to how high the piston sits when it's all the way up (TDC, Top Dead Center), compared to the top of the block. If the piston top, the flat part, is EXACTLY even with the top of the block, you would call that "zero deck", or say that it has "zero deck height". If the piston is down .005, you would say it's ".005 in the hole", or .005 negative.

Ok, so: the lower the piston is in the hole, the lower it makes the compression ratio, because all that space is now part of the cylinder head, basically. This kills power & mileage. You want the highest compression you can get, within the limits of the gas you want to use; 89 octane, 92 premium, whatever. Lots of variables here.

But that's not the only problem a low piston causes, or can cause. As the fuel mixture is being compressed, it tends to be lazy in motion. Under certain conditions, you can have a hot spot in the chamber across from the spark plug. Carbon buildup, a sharp metal edge, whatever. This can fire the fuel mixture on one side, as the plug fires it on the other. The two opposing flame fronts collide- this is detonation. (If the hot spot fires the mixture before the plug, as the piston is still coming up, it's preignition.) Either one, on a regular basis, will tear the crap out of an engine, it's just like taking a hammer to the piston top.

The cure for this is to get the mixture moving, shove it over to the plug quickly, so it's fired correctly (with two weeks notice?? ) Ahem..Anyway, this is called quench; we do this by making sure that the flat part of the piston comes very close to the flat part of the head (opposite the plug), at TDC. This shoves the mixture over. The distance between the head flat & the piston flat is called the quench distance. Kind of like taking an open book and slamming it shut; the air goes out one side of the book, mostly.

Ideally, on a street engine, with steel rods, we try to get this distance set at about .035, give or take. Most composition head gaskets are about .040-.042 or so. So, if the piston is "out of the hole" about .005, with a .040 head gasket, you end up with .035 clearance.

I will say that there are a lot of factors that come into play here, which I didn't bring up, chamber design being one major one. The Y block has a small enough bore size that it's not as much of an issue, (unless the goal is 13.5:1 compression or something like that); there just isn't enough time/distance to cause as much of a problem. I play with 460s a fair amount, with a 4.360 bore size or bigger, and quench is a MAJOR concern; I spend some time dealing with it. Quench is a little controversial & some people question the need; on most STREET engines I consider it essential.

There's a person on this board who has, if memory serves, 312 rods, which are shorter, in a 292 (he didn't do the work, previous owner). I think he determined the pistons were .170 in the hole at TDC. However, the compression is now low enough that detonation hasn't been a problem, & it runs nicely, just not optimum. He's getting the pieces together to fix it and it should be interesting to see how much "seat of the pants" power it picks up.

3) As long as you keep everything well doused with some sort of rust presentative, and do it frequently, you'll be OK. Especially around the valve seats.