Bingo. Check this out:

http://realestate.theemiratesnetwork.com/developments/

I think I know where the money is going...

 

The largest ethanol producing state in the union.

Every station here sells regular unleaded dinosar fuel, and also a 10% blended ethanol fuel. The 10% Ethanol fuel has a 10 cent state tax break on every gallon sold, and most dealers pass on 6 to 8 or sometimes all 10 cents of it to the pump price making it always the fuel of choice when filling (8 cents cheaper on 20 gallons is $1.60).

Also, just starting up this summer late are E-85 pumps. They sell an 85% blend of ethanol to dinosar gas resulting in even greater tax breaks and even cheaper pump prices.

So far I have heard of no pure ethanol pumps, but someday soon.

 

You won't see pure ethanol, mainly because the government is afraid we would try to drink it, so they put the 15% in to prevent that. I have never lost economy to the 10%, and have used it for as long as it has been available. I do have a cleaner fuel system for it though. The carb on my 83 T/A was as clean as the day it was built, I only replaced it because the PO messed up the choke, broke it to where I couldn't save it.

 

All, please refrain from political statements. Technical discussions only.

 

This is out of line. It cost a lot of money to make it and we simply do not have the abilty to produce the volume needed to feed the masses with it. Also Ethanol has about only 55% of the energy of gas so if you ran pure ethanol you would burn about twice as much fule so basically twice the volume is needed. (double the fuel tank size would be need for the same range) Furthermore ethanol does not make a good motor fuel in cold weather and starting adds would be needed from dependable starting in cold weather (a secondary fuel until engine warms up)

 

I think a lot of these issues can be resolved with additives which would come in time with enough research.

 

I have started a non converted carbed motor at -10 below on E85 with minimal issue. For winter time, a blend would be good, but I got that info straight from an ethanol plant manager. I was inquiring about buying straight 100% ethanol from the plant, but he informed me it wqas illegal to do so, because of the fact that it could be drank at that level, so it had to have something mixed with it to prevent anyone from drinking it, hence the 15% gasoline. Also, if you follow up on actual studies done with motors that have higher compression, you would find that they got the same or in some cases netter mileage than the gasoline counterpart. The figure you give is based on BTU, not on actual field tests. If you are thinking that we would use too much grain to produce the fuel, you really need to do some research, as there is no shortage of grain, there is ALWAYS a surplus. We are not even using all of the available ground to produce the grain we get now. Have you heard of the CRP program, or ever a mention of set aside? Some of the intention for the program was to take some land out of production that was too steep for production without erosion trouble, but not all of it that has been enrolled is bad land, much of it is perfect for production. The process of making ethanol still yeilds much of the food products we get in the stores now, that has not and will not change. There also is other crops that are able to more efficienytly be used for ethanol production than corn, it is more that corn is readily available now, and no infrastructure needs to be developed. Switchgrass can grow in harsh conditions, can be raised on hillsides that corn would have wash away, and the by-products can be used to fuel the burners for the production of the ethanol. If the ethanol is so low in efficincy, why would I NOT see a drop in fuel economy when running it? Yes, I have run E85 through several vehicles that were not designed as flex fuel vehicles, and did not notice any lack of economy, but yet had smoother power, less preignition and the like. Ethanol allows more spark advance than gasoline, and more advance means that the engine can produce more power, that is why race engines run as much advance as they can, but if you overdo it, it will destroy the engine. But since the ethanol burns slower, but more steady, it can have more advance, because the flame front doesn't make as much of a shock wave, and the ethanol also burns more completely than gasoline, lowering NOX emmisions.

 

I never thought of that. Imagine fueling up your pick-up, then fueling your personal beverage container with the same stuff! Worse, the ATF would become involved as the tax on booze is much higher than fuel tax...

 

It is the heat energy in the fuel that drives the engine and alchols lacks it greatly compared to gas and while raising CR will improve MPG , it will never come close to matching what you can get out of a poper gas motor. If they would scrape 87 and even 89 octan across the board and build cars with 11 to 1 CR they could improve fleet MPG 8 to 10% and wind up with a fuel that would "cost" about the price of todays 89 because they would not need to make and stock 3 different grades. Time to simplify things and make room for other fuels too.

 

But the main reason that higher compression ratios and gasoline are not used is due to the emissions, they couldn't get the NOX down to acceptable levels, due to incomplete burn..

 

NOx is not from a incomplete burn and diesels which are generally low in HC emissions are really big NOx polluters. NOx is from higher combustion temps causing the nitrogen in the air (which is 78%) combines with extra free oxygen and forms NOx. With a gas engine 3way CATS and engine management you can keep it is check but with diesels it is another matter and there is a LOT more NOx to deal with and starting in 2008 they have to deal with it too as the loop hole is being closed.

 

The gas stations only store two gasolines anyway - 87 and 93 or whatever the octane numbers are in your area. The 89 is a mixture of the two at the pump.

I don't dispute the fact that ethanol has a lower stored energy than gasoline. It is possible to get the same or better mileage than gasoline, due to combustion efficiency; how much of that fuel energy is transferred into mechanical energy of the piston. Sure ethanol is less efficient when burned in an engine designed for gasoline. A lot of these deficiencies of ethanol would be reduced by altering engine design to better suit ethanol as a fuel.

As I said above, the cold start issues and water absorbing issues might one day be reduced or eliminated by additives, which would stem from research.

Ethanol can be made by fermenting about anything, not just corn, so I see it as a good way to reduce dependence on oil. I don't think ethanol will be able to replace gasoline outright, but it can certainly reduce our dependence on it.

NOx comes from high combustion temperatures, correct? Hydrocarbons are emitted from incomplete combustion...

 

Ok, so if alcohol is lower in heat eneergy, and raising the compression raises the economy of it, then it apparently can't be all bad. At the same compression ratios, alcohol is better yet. trick is, the 105 octane gasoline has always been more expensive, and just because vehicles are mass produced to use it will not likely make it any cheaper. Premium is 20 cents a gallon more expensive all the time, and there are plenty who use it. So why wouldn't it then be about the same price as the other grades? Because it is more expensive in the refining process, or at least so they say. Also, alcohol dragsters use higher compression as well, if the energy from the gasoline was that good, wouldn't they use that instead of methanol? Ethanol isn't used much in racing yet, because it is the new kid on the block as far as full scale production goes, but I know some racers that are using it, and whooping up on the methanol racers. I realize the dragsters go through fuel like no tomorrow, but cranking out the horsepower they do, at the rpm's they do, it doesn't matter what fuel you run, that will be the case.

 

Raising the CR to 12 to 1 or so you might get a 10 to 15% improvement in MPG with alchol but you will still be 30 to 40% below a gas engine and with better octane you can raise the MPG on a gas engine too. BTW, I used to drag cars on alchol many years ago and the reason we used it is because it has a higher octane and a it cools the mixture more so it is denser and expands more but it takes a LOT of alchol too and usually your air/fuel ratio is around 4 or 5 to 1 too in a drag car, a lot richer than a gas vehicle and the serious guys use nitro menthene too.

 

Yes but Ethanol Comes off the still at 110-115 and out of the pump (E85) at 105 cheaper than 87(gas). And as was said its burn is cooler yet better suited for use as a fuel when CR, timing and other factors are tuned in.
ethanol (E85) runs 12 to 1
gas (87 pump) runs 8 to 1
Just my $.02