This is a continuation of an earlier post, which can be found here:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/61_79/10992.html

I'm starting a new post becuase I've added pictures and some additional problems. Here we go:

Recap of the problem:

I have a 1979 F150 with the 460 cubic inch V8. When I start it, it runs rough until it warms up a little. After I drive it for a few miles, it doesn't hold the idle at all. It will stall unless I drive two-footed. Also, when I hammer down on it, she bogs until I let up on the gas a bit. I was checking the choke, but I am "Carb Stupid" and broke something right away (shown below). Please excuse my complete lack of vocabulary when it comes to car stuff. Can anyone help?

[IMG SRC="

The carb:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/19N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

Left side:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/20N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

Right side. You can see the orange metal bar (tranny kickdown, I presume) and the throttle linkage(?):
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/21N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

The identification tag. Apparently it's a 3216, not a 4350 as I originally thought:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/22N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

Here's where we see what I broke. I'm using a thin wooden dowel here as a pointer. You can see a small tube that comes from near the top of the left side (right in the center of the picture), and mounts onto the engine below . The stick points out the mounting point. This broke off right at that point... what does this tube do? I think it's metal. I didn't start the truck after breaking this, because I didn't want gas to pour over my engine. I've already had one truck burn to the ground because of gas leak this year (long story):
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/23N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

The next two pictures are to illustrate the position of the plate on top of the carb. Here we see what it looks like right after she stalled out -- it's pretty far open:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/24N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

Here it is after I tugged on the throttle cable, it snapped most of the way closed:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/25N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

Here my finger is pointing to the white arm that apparently operates the positioning of the plate on the top of the carb. When I poke it, the plate releases from it's open position (after stalling/shown here) to the closed position. It seems like it's sticking:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/27N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0 ALT=""]

Another question: the hose my finger is pointing to leads from the side of the carb to... nowhere. It doesn't appear to plug in anywhere:
[IMG SRC="http://www.historicteahouse.com/ford/images/28N.jpg" WIDTH="320" HEIGHT="240" BORDER=0]

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-May-02 AT 01:06 AM (EST)]There should be another tube on the same part(vacuum tube coil) you are pointing to.
This is the tube coil that heats the vacuum by allowing vacuum to go through a heated area (stove) in the intake and into the choke housing.
If one of the tubes is broken,you have get a vacuum leak.

You can plug the tube with vacuum cap.


When the engine is warm that butterfly should be straight up & down (vertical)
When the engine is cold and you push on the gas pedal,the butterfly will close (actuating the choke).When the vacuum assisted choke coil
warms up, the coil pulls the choke off and moves the butterfly into the vertical position.

You my friend have a choke problem.

Undo (loosen)the three screws to the choke housing(black plastic thing)on the side of the carb.
With the engine hot >Turn the housing clockwise until the butterfly is straight up & down, Tighten screws.

You could also change to an Electric choke that the wire hooks up to the stator connection on the alternator.

That will get rid of the problems for now ,until you are ready to adjust the choke.



[b][i][font color=red]Dennis[/font][i][b]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]

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[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
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I would say you are lucky to have that Holley! I am stuck with a 4350 that gives me hesitation like you describe. I have to finesse the throttle when I start out. Full throttle is fine, but stepping into it causes the hesitation.
I found my choke heat tube broke on my 460 also. I got one from the junk yard for pennies and made a gasket and installed it again. Not a big deal, but can't be left open. Motor won't run good.
Your choke plate closes pretty tight when you step on the throttle before starting the truck. When the choke warms up after a while, the choke will move internally to open the choke plate up. You should never see it closed on a warm engine. I am not sure how good the factory chokes are after they are this old, but I am having a rough cold start also, and am thinking about a new electric choke, instead of this mechanical, auto choke.
Anyone have thoughts on that?
Keep that Holley! It should be a good one, and they are always rebuildable.
Mark


Ford started it; Ford will finish it!

 

KEEP THE FACTORY STYLE CHOKE!!! -hehe

Electric chokes cool off to fast and come on way to hard on a warm engine when you make a quick stop at the 7-11 etc. The factory warm air choke follows the engine heat/cool characteristics much better. I personally would prefer a manual choke over an electric, -if only I had enough brain cells left to use one anymore.

You can get replacement parts for the factory choke.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-May-02 AT 09:41 AM (EST)]Um guys, he has a heat/over electric choke system. Look at the second picture down. Notice first, the stovepipe on the left of the choke spring housing. Then look at the spring housing and notice the wire running to the housing. It was called the thermoelectric choke. The reason behind this setup is so that on warm startups the stovepipe preheats the spring and (so Holley will tell us) eliminates the problems that Torque1st stated.

Unless the motor is at full operating temperature the choke spring will close the choke and keep it there. Even on just warm start-ups the choke will be closed, opening only partly, until either engine demands pulls the choke open or the choke spring fully heats up. You can thank emission controls for this little joy of a system. The theory is to heat the truck up to operating temp as fast has possible

The stovepipe is not the tube he broke (the stove pipe being the one that goes to the choke housing). The tube he broke goes in to the carb right next to the vacuum secondary diaphragm and is a heat tube designed to help prevent carb icing. If you take off the air filter and rev the engine there will be no vacuum coming from this tube. Put the air cleaner back on and try the test again and there should be a slight pull. It’s basically a heat vent and nothing more, and not directly hooked to any vacuum source.

In the white arm (actually its aluminum, but white is okay we understand what you meant) he is pointing at is the fast idle/choke cam. The feeling you had of it sticking was the choke spring tension. When you lifted the cam you were compressing the spring. Follow Millions suggestion as to how to set the fast idle.

I’ve talked to my ford carb guy (we all should have carb guys, remember Tim Allen’s garnet guy?) and he is with me on this. The best thing in the world you can do is to rebuild the carb. He mentioned that if the thing sat for any amount of time without gas in the carb the gaskets loved to dry up.

Your carb is basically the Holley 4150 model. A complete diagram of it is online at this URL

http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/4150-60.html [Holley 4150]

Best advise is to rebuild it before you go any further.

 

A big thanks to everyone that's helped so far. As much as I'd hate to rebuild (I'm lazy), perhaps it would be a good way for me to get familiar with how a carb works a bit better.

Okay, I'll do that. And you said I should by new floats, too? How many are there? What else should I know when I buy a rebuid kit?

When I have the carb off, should I go through and replace all of the vacuum hoses, too?

 

Duh Me Wayne, I now see the electric choke housing .
I guess it must have been hidden directly in fornt where it wasn't obscured ,That's why I missed it .


Regarding how a carb works,Go here and have a read.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question377.htm

[b][i][font color=red]Dennis[/font][i][b]
[font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font]

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[font color=blue]78 F-150 429CJ,Silver,Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
[/font]

 

Wayne, your eyes are way better than mine, and I have a 19" Sony flatscreen monitor. Good info on the emissions nightmare. I have had fair luck with just letting a dried out carb soak in gas for a while and spray all of the really hard gunk off with carb cleaner. Beats a rebuild on a carb that was known to be good.

I still have nightmares about vacuum hose monsters slipping their tendrils out from under the hoods of those early 70's autos. Latching onto me like so many little leeches and draining all of my bodily fluids. Leaving me like a dried up cornflake under the pan.
Opening the hood on those monsters was like looking into a pit of wintering snakes.

 

You don't have to replace the floats unless there is gas inside them. I agree with the others-rebuild it. If you want it to perform and look brand new, get a small bucket and fill it with lacquer thinner or advance used to sell carb cleaner in a gallon can. Soak the parts in this stuff for and hour or so. Don't put anything plastic or rubber in this solution-only the metal parts. Holleys are very user friendly as far as rebuilding them goes, and it will make it run like a new truck.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 25-May-02 AT 01:35 AM (EST)]When and if you take everything apart to rebuild your carb, make sure you get non-sitck gaskets (the blue ones). The parts houses should have a generic Holley-made kit in a blister pack for around $20 that will do you good(EDIT: Holley might not have a generic kit for your type of carb, you might have to buy the $40 kit that has stuff you wont need). Insist on non stick gaskets!! If you cant get them, get a tube of chapstick and coat the gaskets. If you have to take it apart again, this will allow you to reuse the gaskets and you wont have a mess trying to get the old ones off(like you will when you tear it down). When you put everything back together, do not tighten the *#$% out of any of the bolts. It will warp stuff and cause you lots of grief. Oh, and before you pull the carb, pressure wash the top of the motor to help keep the crap out of the motor. (cover the dizzy, and top of carb with plastic before you start) While you are at it, you might want to replace all of your vacuum lines, it is cheap insurance

BTW, that is a 4180 Type of carb, NOT a 4160 (575 CFM)
Tony

'77 F250, 4X4 460 transplantee, "Flamer"
'74 F250. 460, "beater" now "1 dead ford"
'73 F250, "midnight auto" now a trailer for the flamer

 

Millions', I have that trouble also. I never could find waldo or do those 3D pictures.


Torque1, I must guess with those kinds of dreams you were a "child" of the 60s'. It's ok, put the bong down and calmly take 3 steps away from your screen. (somebody quick steal his bong)Shame on him for not sharing.


Mastereavis is correct about the 4180 (will I did say basically the 4150-4160). The 4100 series were all based on the same general design. The Holley list for the carb is:

0-80112 (4180)
Direct replacement for 1979 Ford L.D. Trk., 460 C.I.D. automatic
kickdown linkage. Vacuum secondaries, square flange. 600 c.f.m.,
full emission provisions, thermoelectric choke.

Your advice about getting the non-stick gaskets is a good one, and the chapstick trick works also (I use the cherry flavored stick as it is what my wife keeps in her purse). (PS, this trick also works nicely if you have to kiss butt at work, and will not leave a brown stain on your lips/nose if used properly.)

I personally replace the floats. One reason is that I feel perventive maintainess is the best kind. Second is that if your there you might has will and be safe. Third, I've seen to many times where they weren't and should have been causing yet another tear down. And forth there cheap anyways.

 

You found me out, born in 53 :-)

No bong, just tooo many hours spent breathing carb cleaner, gas, and exhaust fumes. Of course the college I went to had a dorm that a friend of mine lived in that was a little "smokey". When you walked down the hall you were three feet off the floor by the time you hit the other end. Clinton never went up there, you couldn't help but inhale:-) The kid that lived across the hall from my buddy must have smoked a kilo a week. They used to hold motorcycle races down that hallway. Worked real good until somebody got a 750 up there (3rd floor). When that beast launched it yanked the carpet out and piled it all up behind it. It was a real fun place. It held the record for the highest % of the student body streaking at the same time.

The nightmares came from having to troubleshoot and fix the touchy cantankerous beasts. Have you ever worked on a 73 or 74 car?

 

Wow -- who knew my carb problems would start such a lengthy thread?

UPDATE:

I'm in the process of rebuilding the carb. I went to Napa, and got raped on the price of a rebuild kit. I paid $60 for the Napa kit (not Holley's kit)! But hey, it was 5PM on a Friday and I wanted to get it done this weekend.

I took the carb off, and took it apart. I'm learning lots about how these odd little creatures work! I hosed it down really well with carb cleaner and got as much gunk off as I possibly could. It was pretty cruddy, but not awful. All of the gaskets were dried up, as suspected.

I started to put it back together when much to my annoyance, the rebuild kit was missing a friggin' gasket. It's between the main body of the carb and the metering valve (???). I don't have the diagram in front of me. All I know is that it was a major piece.

And of course, I didn't realize that I was missing this piece until 5:01PM Saturday, when Napa closed at 5:00. *******s. And, of course, it's a holiday weekend so they are closed Sunday and Monday.

DAMN.

Looks like I'm stuck until next week sometime.

Thanks for the chapstick hint, I'll do that. I wasn't going to install the new floats I bought, because the ones in there look pretty good... but, maybe I will. Only a couple of bucks.

Thanks for everyone's help so far!!

Andy>>

 

$60??? Yeouch! You should have brought the chapstick with you for that price!!! Did any other parts houses have the kit you need in stock?? (I guess I am spoiled. I have about 6 parts houses within 3 miles of my house) Most of them are open till about 8 and would have saved ya around $20. (service sometimes leaves alot to be desired though ) It is rare to have a kit missing a piece. I would stop where you are, take the carb apart again and put all of the gaskets back in the pack and take it back (on tuesday) and exchange it for another kit. They might give you the gasket you need if they have it in stock, but if not, be prepared to exchange the whole kit for a non defective one.

Tony

'77 F250, 4X4 460 transplantee, "Flamer"
'74 F250. 460, "beater" now "1 dead ford"
'73 F250, "midnight auto" now a trailer for the flamer

 

Oops, I accidentally posted this under the original thread. I'll post it again here - sorry for the double.
---------------------------------------------------------------

That's it, y'all suck. Rebuild my carb, 'eh?!?! Bah. I'm learning how much I love fuel injection...
I took the carb off, no big problem. Took it apart, cleaned it, starting putting it back together. As mentioned above, on Saturday I found that my rebuild kit was missing a major gasket. Great. Sunday I made the trek to a different store, and they sold just that gasket. Cool. Went home, and put humpty-dumpty back together again. As I was finishing, I somehow managed to break the choke control rod in two. Not good. My neighbor had some JB Weld, so I applied that and waited until Monday. Up to this point, I've invested about 10 hours in this damned thing. Monday morning, I go check to see if the JB Weld had set up properly, but NOPE. The piece broke again. In a fit of rage, I cut the handle off of a paint can and bent it into shape... which actually works pretty darn well.

So, Monday afternoon I had everything back together.

I put in back in the truck, turn the key, and... NOTHING. Cranks, but won't start. I went under and checked a few things, realized that I put a part on wrong, and took the carb (1st time) off to fix it. Put it back on. Reconnected everything. Turned the key, and promptly soaked my engine in gas. DAMN. Forgot to hook soemthing up. Take the carb off again (2nd time) and reattach all 5,230 hoses, clamps, and various other electronic thingies. Turn the key. NOTHING. Crap -- take it off again (3rd time) and make some other adjustments. Put it back on again, then drank some beer.

Turn the key and... VRROOOOOOOOM. It starts, but runs like total crap. No idle. Gas spewing out of the top. Backfires. Great.

Being a total novice, I start turning randon screws in hope of getting something (ANYTHING) to work right. I got it to idle (badly), but it's still running insanely rich. It's also making this -really- f'ed up knocking noise now. It scares me. Sounds like a monster is living in my engine, and is trying to pound his way out (did I mention I was drinking beer?).

I called my neighbor over, who owns a small garage in town. He only does stuff like tires and oil changes, but he knows more than I do. He looked at it, laughed at me, shrugged his shoulders and walked away (NOTE TO SELF: train dog to crap in neighbor's yard).

So, I'm stuck. Gas is spewing, air is leaking, and and the gods of Ford v8s are mad at me. Neighbor knows a guy that specializes is Ford carbs in the area, so I'm going to try to take it to him. It's beyond me, and I have given up. I'm going to take it to this guy.

UNLESS there is someone on this board that knows what they are doing and you live somewhere near Minneapolis, MN. If you fix my truck, I'll be happy to trade you a night or two in my B&B for your troubles. Chicks dig it.

Now presenting:

THINGS I CAN DO IN THREE HOURS:
- Paint a bedroom
- Create a webpage
- Get **** drunk
- Run one mile (maybe)

THINGS I CAN'T DO IN THREE HOURS:
- Climb Mt. Everest
- Make my wife happy
- Learn Dutch
- REBUILD AND TUNE A Holley 4180 CARB!!!!!!!!