Plus, I'd imagine the manual is just plain faster anyway, so any time lost to shifting is negligable

 

sinister73 said

"In 5 years it will be the torqueshift being replaced - not the ZF. No auto can equal a HD manual for towing or hauling performance, ease of maintenance, sheer reliability, resistance to heat damage, or gear selectability. Todays autos are better than they used to be - there's been some change that way, but autos still cant compare to manuals for brute toughness - that still has'int changed"

I am an old hand shaker guy but now that the new tech autos are what they should have been 30 years ago I am converted.

I got no beef at all with any body that has a preference for the manual trans.

But do not delude your self into thinking that ideas like sinester wants to believe are true.

The ZF is no where as bullet proof as an old Borg Warner T-10

Are you aware that the ZF has 6 fixed gear ratios and the 5R110 has 5 selectable ratios and a torque converter with a lock up phase in EACH of the 5 forward speeds. That is 10, count them 10 distinct ratios! And when unlocked the 5 speeds are semi variable due to converter slippage. So much for gear selectability.

The ZF is NOT rated for the same loads the 5R110W will handle just a fact fellers thats all. (so much for Brut toughness)

The ZF is not a more tow/haul capable trans (a torque converter generate more power to the real axle then the lowest gear a ZF has due to torque multiplication..just a fact folks)

The ZF is no more able to live longer life then the current crop of Autos including the 4R100.

I am NOT saying the ZF is crap! But it is not now, and never will be the best tranny Ford ever put in a truck.

The 5R110 and the NP 271 or 272 transfer case are the highest rated power train components Ford ever mated together.

And before you jump bad with a bunch of emotional BS......Go do some study on what a torque converter does, how it does it, and why planetary gear sets are always more efficient then off set counter shafted 90degree gear designs. Hint, think power flow. And don't try the "big rigs all have manuals" theory. Lots of VERY big equipment have auto trannies including M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks! Many over the road long haul companies have auto trans now.

These 4R100s and 5R110Ws are not your C6 slush box of days gone by. And just so you all know, it is NOT unusual for these trannies to last well past 100,000 miles with simple change out of fluid every 30,000. Many many folks I know go through a clutch every 50-60 thousand miles. So much for ease of maintenance

Lastly, you must be a real savy and proficient shifter dude to even come close to the fuel efficiency the newer auto trannies will get you. I have trained hundred on young men in America to drive manual shift trucks in the Army. Very few of them ever got good at it.

On the other hand I love manual shifting and still own a few exotic old skool vehicles with 4 speeds and triple disk clutch set ups. SO what the hell do I know!??

 

sinister73 said

"In 5 years it will be the torqueshift being replaced - not the ZF. No auto can equal a HD manual for towing or hauling performance, ease of maintenance, sheer reliability, resistance to heat damage, or gear selectability. Todays autos are better than they used to be - there's been some change that way, but autos still cant compare to manuals for brute toughness - that still has'int changed"

I am an old hand shaker guy but now that the new tech autos are what they should have been 30 years ago I am converted.

I got no beef at all with any body that has a preference for the manual trans.

But do not delude your self into thinking that ideas like sinester wants to believe are true.

The ZF is no where as bullet proof as an old Borg Warner T-10

The ZF is NOT rated for the same loads the 5R110W will handle

The ZF is not a more tow/haul capable trans

The ZF is no more able to live longer life then the current crop of Autos including the 4r100. Most folks I know with manual shift trucks go through a clutch every 50-60 thousand miles. Most 4R100 and 5R110 live well past 100,000 with simple fluid change every 30,000 miles. ( remember folks there are over 3 million superduty trucks on the road with the 4R100 and 5R110 trany. They are not considered a piece of crap trans.

And before you jump bad with a bunch of emotional BS go do some study on what a torque converter does, how it does it and why planetary gear sets are always more efficient then off set counter shafted 90degree gear designs. Hint think power flow.

And don't try the big rigs all have manuals theory. Lots of VERY big equipment have auto trannies including M-1 Abrams Main Battle Tanks! Several Major Over The Road companies use auto trans Tractors.

I would be happy to debate each and every one of the myths many of you believe about ZF vs 5R110 or 4R100 transmissions. But before I do please at least look up the specs of the one you believe to be superior so then you won't be talking out your butt.

BTW I taught about 280 +or- about 100, 18-25 year old soldiers to drive jeeps, duce n a half's, 5 tons, and HETTs for several years. Been shifting manual trannies myself for well over 35 years.

And I have several decent autos with some serious power trains. Still got a BW T-10 (modified to super T-10) with a Shaefer Triple disk clutch set up.

 

I don't know what standard transmission that Dodge coupled to their Cummins but the OD gear drops off them. It happened twice to my brother's 98 Dodge Cummins and he just bought himself a new 05 Cummins automatic. I wish him well,

Actually for years in Ford and the other two brands, you had to get the automatic transmissions to get the maximum tow ratings, It is nice to see you can now get the max tow ratings in a standard for the guys that like to shift gears.

I think people should have a choice and in some areas the standard has it's advantages and if you have ever been in a 2 hour gridlock with a standard , you would have to agree that an Auto also has it's advantages.

I agree with Fred in saying that today's automatics can be every bit as tough as a standard transmission except in one area, it is far tougher to sell a used standard.

 

I agree the new slush boxes are way better than they used to be but if you have to replace a clutch every 50 or 60 thousand miles, you need an auto for simple fact you can't drive one correctly but even if you did count the cost of changing a clutch, presure plate and resurfacing a flywheel ,you could change those parts 5 or 6 times and not even cost as much as a one rebuild of an auto .
autos are great around town ,but this 6 speed you can take off in 3rd and shift right to 6th and not even spill you coffee in traffic ( you can tell I really like this 6 speed )
but this is my 2 cents worth

 

Sorry about the two posts... last night when I hit the button the site glitched and when I went to read the post it was not there.

the back and refresh buttons got me back to a pre edit version so I patiently tried again... now you all get a little insite into my warped mind (grin)

I am NOT bashing Manual trany lovers. Contrary..if you know how to use one they are fun and a way of life. All that needs to be said is you love a manual trany and you are good at using one. Period. That is cool and respectable.

Just don't be spouting off justifications that are not factually correct.

 

Kenny

I know many folks like you that prefer and are good at using a manual either with a load or empty.

And you know that the "touch" and "clutch" for some folks becomes natural and easy.

But there are tens of thousands of people out there that never get the "feel" or technique down. Mostly these are not mechanically inclined folks. Of all the hundreds I trained to use a clutch and non syncro transmission...the only ones who ever got good at it were typical motor heads who understood what was going on mechanically. Very few ever get a "natural" feel for power, clutch friction, and load...

Not sure if you can claim as high as 5 or 6 clutch jobs for the cost of a 4R100 rebuild unless you are doing all the labor yourself. I got a totally bullet proofed 4R100 from Brian (BTS) for $2100 plus giving up my used (78,000mile) box to him. That included shipping both ways.

Last time my friend cried and complained about it his Clutch replacement (disk, Pressure plate, throwout bearing) surface flywheel and labor was over $450 ....

yea, OK, I guess you could do 4 or 5 clutches... but by my example of once every 50-60 thousand miles the point is moot.

Better yet just take care of the 4R100 by NOT over temping the fluid and change fluid ever 30-40K and they last just fine.

My local "custom transmission" Oliver brothers shop will rebuild a 4R100 including remove and install in the $800 range if the housing is not broken.

I am good friends with one of the techs. He says that folks who smoke the trans in reverse (common problem with old folks and BIG trailers) is what he mostly sees with Ford autos. He states that the internals are pretty tight and clean out to around 125,000 miles on Fords 95 to present auto tranies. Un heard of just a generation ago.

 

Hey Fredvon, I understand you are a very well respected poster here in this forum - for you the V10 forum is a home away from home. I can respect that - and actually have much respect for just about all of the opinions you've ever given in this forum. This is different.

Your a bit off balance with this one. You seem a bit emotional here. Your arguement seems based on your having driven manual transmissions for 35 years and having taught many an 18 year old to do so as well. Your then accusing others who have not even retorted yet of possibly "spewing emotional BS". You then go on to compare Abrams MBT's. Your side stepping certain issues. Lastly, you insinuate that those who believe the ZF to be a superior transmission are "talking out their butts". Your arguement seems a smoke screen. It's lacking. It dosent address anything directly. At least I will say exactly what I mean.

For me this forum is just a pit stop in which to gain insight and hear peoples opinions. I hav'ent had time nor reason to garner the immaculate reputation that you have here among your fellow V10 brethren. All the same, the man who started this subject made a few statements and wanted input on a subject which interests me - I gave mine.

First, the fact that you have driven manual trucks for over 35 years and have taught others to do so, does not make you an expert of any sort on the issue of automatic vs manual transmission trucks - especially not if your opinion regarding both is skewed by sales literature indicating an advantage for automatic equipped trucks or the fact that you own one.

The collective experiences of owners about how each will hold up to use/abuse is far more indicative of strength and durability than a sales brochure. The experiences of those who have owned one of each or at
least are familiar with both because of knowing others who have, is far more valueable as information to the uninformed than are the musings of a gentleman reminiscing about the recruits he's helped to learn standard shift.

One question - why are you comparing MBT's? Who was ever talking of OTR tractor trailers? We're talking about the Super Duty here - that's it. And the two transmissions which are available are the ZF 6 speed and the Torqueshift automatic transmission - nothing else my friend.

Your Allison equipped M1 really has little in common with your 5R110 -less so than the ZF does with an Eaton 10 speed. That being said, hitch 35K onto two trucks otherwise identically equipped and send them up a 6% grade for a 4 mile stretch - that'll settle any durability issues I'm talking about. Neither will likely get out of first gear and if so, the TS will fail despite it's extra cooling capacity - I would say it's likely that ratings aren't everything.

This is an extreme test, but it will only accelerate what can be expected over the long haul if both trucks are used for heavy commercial purposes day in and day out. Go ahead and ask any owner who uses his truck in a heavy commercial or residential service if he'd rather have the torque multiplication of an auto (fractions of a second here) or the granny reverse in a HD manual when backing an overloaded truck up a steep driveway - better gas the auto up on level ground and hope not to hit someone on the way up...

Want to live by Ford's published ratings?.. Then apply it evenly across the board. You say that the ZF is not the most bullet proof manual ever put into a Ford truck - according to Ford it is. I don't think the NP 435, T18, T-19, or ZF 5 speed transmissions ever recieved a 26000lb GVWR or 650 ftlb input torque rating. Your BW T10 would'int last a day in the applications that the ZF sees.

As far as replacing a clutch within 60K goes - only two possiblities 1.) A defective component 2.) a defective driving style - usually it's the latter of these two which causes premature clutch failures. I've never personally witnessed an auto transmission lasting for over 100,000 miles in heavy duty use without problems, I've also never personally witnessed a heavy duty manual transmission losing a clutch before 100k.

Why skirt the issue on gear selectability? This is a plain simple fact - with a manual, you put it in the gear you want for it to be in and that's that. With an electronically controlled automatic you put it in the gear you want it to be in - but that's not always necessarily that. And according to you, the 5r110 is an almost infinitely variable transmission - that equates into an almost infinitely number of ways available to it to confuse itself or malfunction.

I know well what a torque convertor is - and I'm not impressed.

3.10:1 first x 1.89 tq convertor ratio assist (minus) 20% heat loss = 4.68:1 equivalent first gear ratio. The ZF's is 5.79:1. For heavy loads from a stop, the TQ multiplication stops once the vehicle is up to a certain wheel speed - now your back to 3.10:1 or any variable between this and 4.68:1. The ZF is still at 5.79:1 - until the DRIVER decides it's time to shift. Hit a small hill with the auto and your back into the convertor slipping to gear itself lower again - lots of heat being created here people.

Reverse is even worse. With 2.49 reverse ratio the auto lacks the gearing to back good sized loads as well as a manual would;

2.49 X 1.89 (-) 20% = 3.76 x 4.30:1 = 16.18 crawl ratio - and only for fractions of a second before your back to 2.49 x 4.30 = 10.70 reverse ratio.
ZF = 5.23 x 4.30 = 22.48 reverse crawl ratio - the WHOLE way.

BTW, since ratings have come up,for a good while, Dodge rated their manual well above the auto for towing with the Cummins engine. And until the advent of the 48RE you could not even get an auto with the high output version bacause of suspected failure issues. The same was true of Ford with the 7.3 PSD at one point. The ZF 6 speed trucks came with 275 HP and considerably higher torque than trucks with the 4r100 did- which came with only 230 HP - Ford apparantely felt that the 4r100 could not take the extra low RPM torque input of the upgraded 7.3.

Oh well, still talking outta my butt I guess.

 

Wow you guy's can put down enough words ( I can't think of that much to say LOL )
I have had many vehicles in my life and the toughest manual was the np 435 in my 79 f350 that thing just seemed bullet proof I pulled the guts out of it , mudded it HARD for ten years ,all I did to it was change the gear oil once a year and went thru a clutch at 150,000 but this 6 speed is so smooth I just wonder why there aren't more out there especialy the price of gas nowa days

 

Although there are a number of reasons that I have for wanting the manual trans on my next truck, the biggie is controlling what gear I want at any particular time. The autos shift fine and are rated great, but I don't like putting up with the frustration of ending up with whatever gear ratio the electronic "mind" of the auto decides is best for me. I don't have a particular love for shifting all the time, but I'll put up with it to be in the gear I want.

 

sinester73

Pretty good post... other then the initial jabs at me it was well though out and argued. Let me assure you that much of my twin posts were not directed directly at you. In these forums there are many folks reading and few posting. Yours was one of 20 some odd differing ideas, and don't forget that this particular subject has many more threads then just this one.

In the hands (and foot) of a experienced driver you are correct in many of your claims. However since I have owned 7 different Ford tranny, 4 different Chevy boxes, 5 Asian, and 3 different European versions I think I have some practical experience and yes I have plenty of time inside most of the transmissions in use today.

Several of your assertions are patently false, given the average user. And quite frankly you spent time looking up the specs of the ZF but fail to list the capabilities of either the 4R100 or the 5R110W.... hum are you trying to skew or spin the facts? Did you miss the part where I said I was NOT saying the ZF was crap?

Your said "I've also never personally witnessed a heavy duty manual transmission losing a clutch before 100k". I say...OK so what? I personally know 13 clutch jobs this year on SuperDuty trucks. Of the 13 I know that two were throwout bearing failures not caused by dragging foot. and to you, that is also a "so what"?. Point is there is a defiantly maintenance cost associated with some manual transmissions. Not every body gets a 100,00 miles out of a clutch. I say, if you do, it is rare, not average.

You said "Go ahead and ask any owner who uses his truck in a heavy commercial or residential service if he'd rather have the torque multiplication of an auto (fractions of a second here) or the granny reverse in a HD manual when backing an overloaded truck up a steep driveway - better gas the auto up on level ground and hope not to hit someone on the way up..." Guess you don't lurk in the V10 forum enough to know that I Am a owner of 8 SuperDuty v10s and 2 PSD powered trucks COMMERCIALLY.... I choose automatics on purpose for them.


Second idea for you: Have you ever been to an airport? Next time you are in any one of the hundreds of airports in America pay real close attention to People haulers, the chassis they are built on, and the shift lever the driver uses. Or try this, go to your closest Giant RV dealer and tell him you must have a manual transmission in a new E350, E450 or F53 chassis Class C motor coach.

Sinister73.....Who do you think is trying to impress you? Quote "I know well what a torque converter is - and I'm not impressed."


You also stated "And according to you, the 5r110 is an almost infinitely variable transmission - that equates into an almost infinitely number of ways available to it to confuse itself or malfunction." Sounds like your assertion about "confusion" and "malfunction" is certainly not fact based. That said, it appears that this is just what YOU feel. Hum....feeling is an emotion last I looked. (grin) Just what empirical evidence do you have that 4R100 or 5R110Ws ever get confused or malfunction?

Why are you so resistant to the facts of torque multiplication and the benefit from that unique capability of a converter? There are other benefits to the torque converters... they absorb power pulses and lessen the impact strain on powertrain components....sorry there are just facts, I can't help it.


It was you, claiming greater ratio selection of the 6 speed and I simply pointed out a feature of the 5R110 in that it effectively has 10 distinct ratios. You are the one who fostered the idea that more was better. I simply extended your thought to let folks know, that by your standards, the 5R110 has what you desire plus 4 more. (grin)

Since you seem bent on debating how much better a manual is over an automatic. Would you care to describe the power flow through a ZF and then a 5R110 to the class? Come right up to the chalk board and draw the flow and then calculate the parasitic power losses at each 90 degree turn of the power.

When you are done diagramming both transmissions power flows, I want you to graph the torque curve of a 3v V10 and over lay the power inputs in Ft Lbs at the flywheel and cross compare to the power leaving the tail shaft in Ft lbs after accounting for each loss and each multiplication. No the answer is not in the back of the teachers addition.

And lastly sisister73, since you don't have any more info in your bio then the fact that you have an F150...you go hook up 35 thousand pounds to your truck and abuse the hell out of it if you must prove a point.

Me? Well I think the extra $1700 for the 5R110 is well spent. My puny 7800lb truck and my light weight 14,383lb trailer and bed load equals 22,183lbs and the 5R110 motivates it just fine over Vail and Loveland pass twice a year and all the Arizona, Utah, and Big Bend area steep twistiest I have to traverse. And when I have to pass through Houston on the way to new Orleans or Dallas on the way north during rush hour traffic.... well my left leg and knee sure do appreciate Henry Ford's engineers for this Better Idea TorqShift transmission!

Peace brother, good luck 5 years from now on finding any one who will sell you a new truck with a manual... they are not rare right now but I assure you they are history soon.

 

Sinister and Fred , all I can say after reading your posts is WOW. I don't ever want to get into an argument with either one of you but I am glad you're both Ford Guys.
Take care and Peace Brothers. Let's all enjoy our SD V10s , Standard or auto trans.

 

I honestly believe that gettin in excess of 100k on one clutch being rare, is slightly inaccurate. I personally know of at least 15-20 trucks on the stock clutch with well over 100k on them.

Example #1 1997 F150, 4.6V8, 4x4 5spd 3.55. This truck has 140k when we sold it, ran taller than stock tires for 95% of its life, towed up to 10k throughout its life. One summer it saw GCWR of 14k towing a trailer filled with scrap. The clutch was still working very well when we sold the truck.

Example#2 2002 F350, PSD, 6spd used as a hotshot hauling truck that grosses 36k virtually everyday of its life. Mileage? 200k on the stock clutch.

Example #3 1999 F350 PSD, 6spd with 150k on the stock clutch.

All trucks were driven by different drivers, at different times under different conditions. I dont think it is all that rare to get 100k out of a clutch, maybe Im just lucky. Obviously the application they are used in, and conditions will dictate how long an auto will last, just the same as a manual trans. Hell, I know of a Mercedes 240D with 750K on the ORIGINAL drivetrain, that was 4cyl diesel, automatic trans car. The car was retired due to rust. All depends on how you drive them, and I dont think ANYONE will disagree that an automatic is easier to drive than a manual transmission.


Also, the reference to airport people haulers and their exclusive use of automatic transmissions. As far as I know, manual transmissions arent even available in the E series vans. Even if they were, I am pretty sure most companies would choose automatics because they are inherantly easier to drive for an inexperienced operator. And when dealing with "people movers" , smoother is generally better.

The TS trans is a very nice unit. Ive driven a few of them behind V8s, V10s, and PSDs and they all seemed to work well. If I was going to tow with one, Id go out and spend 250bucks on the biggest trans cooler I could find, and get an autometer trans temp gauge to get rid of the inaccurate, vague trans temp gauge supplied by Ford. The TS does indeed carry a higher capacity, but only in the F450/550s.

It is nice to see that the 6spd and TS are rated for the same in a comparably equipped F350 CC DRW 4x4. Perhaps Ford has more faith in the drivers of these 6spd than they did a few years ago, when autos seemed to constantly have higher GCWRs. As was said, most people DONT know how to drive a manual transmission, and with an automatic being easier to drive, it would provide for less abuse throughout the drivetrain with an inexperienced driver.

This seems to be going the way of the gas vs. diesel debates, but at least we are putting down some facts about actual Ford spec'd weights. As for longetivity, everyone will have a different story.

 

One of my biggest quandries is whether to take the $8K buyout and keep this '01, or trade it in (for somewhat more money) for a 3-valve TS-equipped new one. It'd have to be a CC this time though...

Since I'm already an auto guy (not by choice), the only problem for me is that coil-spring front-end

Imagine that, deciding between a 2-valve or 3-valve V10, and being worried about that coil front-end...

 

Krewat
Just get off your ***, keep the 01 get the 06 3vV10. 4.30:1 4x4 long bed 4 door, ITBC, SuperDuty in the color you want. Once you find yourself constantly ignoring the 01 then you can sell the old gal with a smile.... I would not BS you Long Island brother!!! The coil front end is just as tight and level today 17,000+ miles and 13 months older (about 4500miles of Texas gravel and off road use) then the day they slid this beautiful beasty off the transporter.

I suppose I could have been shorter and easier by first posting that the ZF and the TorqShift are both equally great transmissions but what fun would that be.

I never started the argument stating that the manual trany was crap but many hand shaker purists seem to want to post myths and BS about how MUCH better a manual is then an automatic...many post this nonsense with no experience towing and hauling with a TorqShift.

TxCaddy 42 makes a good point about the auto trany in the people haulers... and I fully agree, but there is two reasons they are the only trany offered in that class... driver inexperience certainly is a factor, but by logic Ford must be certain the auto will also hold up to the loads and abuse airport people haulers are subjected to.

Part of my point was noting a Commercial application where the automatic is the better choice and reliable enough for the purpose.

I respect the fellers who simply state they prefer the hand shaker, and perhaps some mention about gear selection, road feel, power control....those are all relevant considerations.

However any attempt to direct some new person considering a Ford SuperDuty to try any way possible to get a ZF by saying the TorqShift is crap will always get a rebuttal from me. Just that simple.

Now can any one of you die hard anti automatic fellows tell the class why around 2010-2012 the manual will be very very rare? And most likely no longer listed in Ford, Chevy and Dodge 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton pickup truck offerings?