Ethanol conversions for a 92 - 6 Ford truck
#1
Ethanol conversions for a 92 - 6 Ford truck
I read through some of the threads, no one seemed to ask this, so what would it take to make say, a 93 351 ethanol ready? I know my grand father put straight moonshine in his 81 Ford with a 302. He seemed to think all you needed were metal fuel lines. Granted, when he did put shine in, it ran loud as all get out, but it still ran. He put over 300000 miles on that motor before it finally started to give out, and every time he ran out of gas, in went a gallon of corn whiskey. My grandfather knows cars, but he did forget to look at the fuel guage. So, is there a special kind of injector needed for ethanol? The seals are the same, so they should hold up pretty good, put in a metal fuel line, that can take the pressure. Is that about it? Or is there more?
#3
If you mean more then 10% ethanol..
Fuel lines, gas tank, seals, just to name a few. You could get away doing what your grand father did. But it was only a gallon or two at a time and then mixed with normal fuel.
Ethanol like E85 will eat the rubber seals and fuel lines and the tank. I have an E85 capable vehicle, and after the fuel prices went up I looked into the E85. Its to costly to convert a vehicle to run ethanol thats not ment to. All the things listed above were from a E85 web site. And they warn people not to use it if your vehicle is not equiped to.
Oh, and by the way vehicles gets worse mpg when using E85 then when they use standard fuel.
Fuel lines, gas tank, seals, just to name a few. You could get away doing what your grand father did. But it was only a gallon or two at a time and then mixed with normal fuel.
Ethanol like E85 will eat the rubber seals and fuel lines and the tank. I have an E85 capable vehicle, and after the fuel prices went up I looked into the E85. Its to costly to convert a vehicle to run ethanol thats not ment to. All the things listed above were from a E85 web site. And they warn people not to use it if your vehicle is not equiped to.
Oh, and by the way vehicles gets worse mpg when using E85 then when they use standard fuel.
#4
conversion job
Snake, what are you trying to end up with here ? A truck that will run on either gasoline or ethanol ?, or a truck that runs on just ethanol ( I'll presume you're looking at E85 ? ). Changed your truck to flex fuel staus would be tough. Changing over to E85 only, on the other hand is much easier, but if the engine were optimized to used E85, then using regular gasoline is no longer an option. DF, @ his Dad's house Dern, thats only partially true. Flex fuel cars use more when running on ethanol, but dedicated ethanol engines do not.
#5
#6
ethanol conversions
Snake, the flexfuel bit is a bit harder to do. I'm not quite sure how you would do it....the flexfuel trucks come with an extra sensor to measure the specific gravity of the fuel in the tank, and the computer in those cars then adjusts timing and fuel injector spray pulse to what ever the mixture in the fuel tank needs. There is a unit sold in Brazil called a 'Flextek' that you splice in between the injectors and the stock computer. I have never used one and don't know how well the work, but they sell well in Brazil. Have you looked at the E85 web site ? It shows where all of the ethanol stations in the country are. Depending on where you are going, you might very well be able to do an E85 only conversion, if you can plan your fuel stops. How much fuel can you carry ? I have a couple of 150 gallon tanks, and with one of those in the bed, I figure I have at least 1500 miles of range. DF, @ his Dad's house
#7
Originally Posted by Dino@his Dad's
Flex fuel cars use more when running on ethanol, but dedicated ethanol engines do not.
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#8
ethanol mileage
Snow, sorry to have to disagree with you, but you are mistaken. Ethanol, (and E85), engines not only can match gasoline on a miles per liquid gallon basis, they can beat them. The corn growers lobby used to give several colleges a new truck and let the kids convert a gasoline truck over to ethanol. The colleges that won the competitions always got better mileage on E85 than the stock truck did on gasoline. When you keep in mind the fact that ethanol has about 2/3rds the BTUs as gasoline, and still the kids were able to not only match but exceed the gasoline mileage, that tells me that it CAN be done. I don't think there is an 'Ethanol Vehicle Challenge' anymore, the car manufacurers have got it all figured out now. There just has to be enough demand, and I believe you'll see it in a few years, and Ford will be selling E85 only trucks that get the same fuel mileage as gasoline trucks do. DF
#9
Originally Posted by Dino@his Dad's
Snow, sorry to have to disagree with you, but you are mistaken. Ethanol, (and E85), engines not only can match gasoline on a miles per liquid gallon basis, they can beat them. The corn growers lobby used to give several colleges a new truck and let the kids convert a gasoline truck over to ethanol. The colleges that won the competitions always got better mileage on E85 than the stock truck did on gasoline. When you keep in mind the fact that ethanol has about 2/3rds the BTUs as gasoline, and still the kids were able to not only match but exceed the gasoline mileage, that tells me that it CAN be done. I don't think there is an 'Ethanol Vehicle Challenge' anymore, the car manufacurers have got it all figured out now. There just has to be enough demand, and I believe you'll see it in a few years, and Ford will be selling E85 only trucks that get the same fuel mileage as gasoline trucks do. DF
#11
#12
ethanol efficiency
Snow, sorry guy, but YOU'RE the one who is mistaken and misinformed. You have the correct numbers as far as btu's go, but that is only part of the story. The btus numbers reflect how much fuel is needed to boil a gallon of water in a certain amount of time. But we aren't interested in boiling water. The internal combustion engine uses the heat from combustion to push the pistons down. In an IC, as you stated, the thermal efficiency for a gasoline burner raely gets above 33 %. Thats true. Normal gasoline burners get about 25% TE. But ethanol burners that are built with 14 to 1 pistons have no trouble achieving 40% TE. So if we have gasoline @ 25% of 120,000, we get about 30,000 btus of usefull work. In the E85 or ethanol engine, we start with 80,000, and if we get 40% TE then the alky burner gives 32,000 btus of usefull work. But that is not all there is to it, there is also flame speed. Because ethanol has a faster flame speed than gasoline, more of the 'push' from the burn occurs when the piston is close to the top of the bore, so more of the work from the burn is captured and used to pish the piston down the bore. The only downside, if you must have one, is that a dedicated E85 engine is not able to run on gasoline only. I have 3 pickups at home, so I don't care. I'll have one for gasoline and one for E85 what about the third, I don't know yet. I drive whatever is cheaper. You might want to do a Google search on the results of the 'Ethanol Vehicle Challenge' - college kids were able to beat the factory mileage in their E85 trucks. I would have to imagine an engineer, like the OEs have lots of, could do even better. DF, @ his Dad's house
#13
Originally Posted by Dino@his Dad's
Snow, sorry guy, but YOU'RE the one who is mistaken and misinformed. You have the correct numbers as far as btu's go, but that is only part of the story. The btus numbers reflect how much fuel is needed to boil a gallon of water in a certain amount of time. But we aren't interested in boiling water. The internal combustion engine uses the heat from combustion to push the pistons down. In an IC, as you stated, the thermal efficiency for a gasoline burner raely gets above 33 %. Thats true. Normal gasoline burners get about 25% TE. But ethanol burners that are built with 14 to 1 pistons have no trouble achieving 40% TE. So if we have gasoline @ 25% of 120,000, we get about 30,000 btus of usefull work. In the E85 or ethanol engine, we start with 80,000, and if we get 40% TE then the alky burner gives 32,000 btus of usefull work. But that is not all there is to it, there is also flame speed. Because ethanol has a faster flame speed than gasoline, more of the 'push' from the burn occurs when the piston is close to the top of the bore, so more of the work from the burn is captured and used to pish the piston down the bore. The only downside, if you must have one, is that a dedicated E85 engine is not able to run on gasoline only. I have 3 pickups at home, so I don't care. I'll have one for gasoline and one for E85 what about the third, I don't know yet. I drive whatever is cheaper. You might want to do a Google search on the results of the 'Ethanol Vehicle Challenge' - college kids were able to beat the factory mileage in their E85 trucks. I would have to imagine an engineer, like the OEs have lots of, could do even better. DF, @ his Dad's house
#14
alcohol or gasoline
Snow, I thought the boiling water explanation was great, 'cause that is how btus are defined. As to 'Alcohol not catching gasoline' for mileage, it not only can happen, it already has- and it was so easily achievable, the corn guys don't hold an Ethanol Vehicle Challenge anymore. It seems they and the OEs feel the tech issues have already all been figured out. About the hard starting, you have a valid concern. The colder it gets, the less alky wants to vapourize. There is also the issue that the alcohol that works best is the same alcohol that folks can drink. The government is absolutely terrified about the possiblility that someone might drink that ethanol and have some fun with it before they can collect a beverage tax on it. Both of those problems can be combated in the same way. The corn guys have been pushing for ethanol to be sold a E85- 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. That makes it undrinkable and the 15% gasoline helps the engine start more easily in cold weather. In some places, in the winter, E85 is really a 70% ethanol 30% gasoline blend, the extra gasoline being added for easier very cold weather starting. Methanol was tried as a transportation fuel, but it didn't seem to get much consumer acceptance. The ethanol guys are having better success, currently at least, and they are working hard at getting more efficiiiiient all the time. And it doesn't have to be made from corn. Brazil uses cane sugar. Sugar beets work well also. Henry Ford used and recommended potatoes. The Chinese are using several differant types of sorghum. If one uses genetically modified yeast, you can get ethanol from wheat straw, wood chips or sawdust. There is even a distillery out west someplace that is burning cow chips ( for real ) to heat up their mash pots. I think converting some of our trucks to ethanol ( or E85 ) deserves a real serious look. Oil isn't getting any cheaper, and we in the US of A have lots of farmland. Shouldn't we at least try it and see how well we can make it work ? DF
#15
Originally Posted by dinosaurfan
Snow, I thought the boiling water explanation was great, 'cause that is how btus are defined. As to 'Alcohol not catching gasoline' for mileage, it not only can happen, it already has- and it was so easily achievable, the corn guys don't hold an Ethanol Vehicle Challenge anymore. It seems they and the OEs feel the tech issues have already all been figured out. About the hard starting, you have a valid concern. The colder it gets, the less alky wants to vapourize. There is also the issue that the alcohol that works best is the same alcohol that folks can drink. The government is absolutely terrified about the possiblility that someone might drink that ethanol and have some fun with it before they can collect a beverage tax on it. Both of those problems can be combated in the same way. The corn guys have been pushing for ethanol to be sold a E85- 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. That makes it undrinkable and the 15% gasoline helps the engine start more easily in cold weather. In some places, in the winter, E85 is really a 70% ethanol 30% gasoline blend, the extra gasoline being added for easier very cold weather starting. Methanol was tried as a transportation fuel, but it didn't seem to get much consumer acceptance. The ethanol guys are having better success, currently at least, and they are working hard at getting more efficiiiiient all the time. And it doesn't have to be made from corn. Brazil uses cane sugar. Sugar beets work well also. Henry Ford used and recommended potatoes. The Chinese are using several differant types of sorghum. If one uses genetically modified yeast, you can get ethanol from wheat straw, wood chips or sawdust. There is even a distillery out west someplace that is burning cow chips ( for real ) to heat up their mash pots. I think converting some of our trucks to ethanol ( or E85 ) deserves a real serious look. Oil isn't getting any cheaper, and we in the US of A have lots of farmland. Shouldn't we at least try it and see how well we can make it work ? DF