351C Problems
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351C Problems
I am about to remove a 351C from a car that has some issues. I thought I would get some input. The car has been running hotter and hotter oil temps (with lower oil pressures as it heats up. The water temps have not been changing that much. It is not smoking; or at least that which is noticeable. I thought maybe the heat riser was leaking so I took of the intake. No evidence of. I must be getting blow by in the cylinders. I did a compression check on all the cylinders last night. I think the compression for this engine is somewhat high but I don't know. They were off a little across the board:
Front to back
Left:
185
204
193
192
Right:
196
162
186
190
I did not have a leak down checker. There is quite a difference between 204 and 162 so there may be my problem. I did not build this engine and do not know the internals so it will be interesting when I break it apart.
Isn't 200lbs kind of high? Could explain a broken ring.
Here is an actual rear wheel dyno before I began disassembly:
http:///www.rc-tech.net/per/pantdyno.jpg
Gary
Front to back
Left:
185
204
193
192
Right:
196
162
186
190
I did not have a leak down checker. There is quite a difference between 204 and 162 so there may be my problem. I did not build this engine and do not know the internals so it will be interesting when I break it apart.
Isn't 200lbs kind of high? Could explain a broken ring.
Here is an actual rear wheel dyno before I began disassembly:
http:///www.rc-tech.net/per/pantdyno.jpg
Gary
Last edited by gow589; Jun 22, 2005 at 08:46 AM. Reason: spelling, lin
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From: Eustis FL
Your lower reading is still 10 psi within 75% of your higher reading, which is very acceptable...
Remove your oil fill cap and observe for smoke when running to indicate excessive blow-by. I don't think you would have a ring problem, but I don't know the history of your engine. It would be good to know when it was rebuilt, and what, if anything, was done to it beyond stock;
You are running an oil temp gauge, I take it?
If you are going to pull the motor, check the bearing clearances on the mains, and check oil passageways.
If you are not going that far, pull your oil filter and maybe cut it open and look for metal particles or sludge. Maybe just changing the filter with a good one will help (ac delco, purolator, baldwin) NO FRAM
I have never read anywhere about what varying oil temperatures indicates, but lower oil pressure says something. Keep in mind that little oil pressure when idling is normal. Some of my high mileage engines had excellent oil pressure at any speed, and some had little to no pressure indicated at idle, but they are all still functioning perfectly.
Mark
Remove your oil fill cap and observe for smoke when running to indicate excessive blow-by. I don't think you would have a ring problem, but I don't know the history of your engine. It would be good to know when it was rebuilt, and what, if anything, was done to it beyond stock;
You are running an oil temp gauge, I take it?
If you are going to pull the motor, check the bearing clearances on the mains, and check oil passageways.
If you are not going that far, pull your oil filter and maybe cut it open and look for metal particles or sludge. Maybe just changing the filter with a good one will help (ac delco, purolator, baldwin) NO FRAM
I have never read anywhere about what varying oil temperatures indicates, but lower oil pressure says something. Keep in mind that little oil pressure when idling is normal. Some of my high mileage engines had excellent oil pressure at any speed, and some had little to no pressure indicated at idle, but they are all still functioning perfectly.
Mark
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Yes I have an oil temp guage. I concidered possibly it being bad but as the oil temps progressively got higher the pressures got lower. I have changed the main bearings once already to what is suposidly a low time engine. I am afraidd I am unable to get much history. At this point I will probably pull it out. If I had a heat riser leaking I would have put it back in. Oil temps were going past 260 (looks like it would continue on up) doing 50-55 on the highway. I had to stop and let it cool on a trip to the drive in (about 30 miles). I have had it on nothing but very short trips since.
I am going to put a 400 in it but I was hoping I could get a few more miles on this before I took the car down to make the change.
Gary
I am going to put a 400 in it but I was hoping I could get a few more miles on this before I took the car down to make the change.
Gary
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From: Eustis FL
Gary, did you plastigauge each new bearing after you installed them to torque?
I just have no idea, other than the quality of oil and filter you are using, what would be causing this problem, other than oil pump failing or pickup plugged, and what I mentioned with the bearings. And yeah, it is probably easier to check things out with the engine pulled, once you rule out the easy stuff...
Mark
I just have no idea, other than the quality of oil and filter you are using, what would be causing this problem, other than oil pump failing or pickup plugged, and what I mentioned with the bearings. And yeah, it is probably easier to check things out with the engine pulled, once you rule out the easy stuff...
Mark
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Originally Posted by trinogt
Gary, did you plastigauge each new bearing after you installed them to torque?
I just have no idea, other than the quality of oil and filter you are using, what would be causing this problem, other than oil pump failing or pickup plugged, and what I mentioned with the bearings. And yeah, it is probably easier to check things out with the engine pulled, once you rule out the easy stuff...
Mark
I just have no idea, other than the quality of oil and filter you are using, what would be causing this problem, other than oil pump failing or pickup plugged, and what I mentioned with the bearings. And yeah, it is probably easier to check things out with the engine pulled, once you rule out the easy stuff...
Mark
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From: Eustis FL
Just a guess, but maybe the HV oil pump is too much for a stock pan??? I read in a reputable mag that the stock pump was great for street racing. Anything more, HV plus deep sump pan, so there is always oil for the pump, and it doesn't cavitate...
So, you have a transmission to go with that 400, since a Cleveland transmission won't fit? What car is the Cleveland in? You've got me curious!
Mark
So, you have a transmission to go with that 400, since a Cleveland transmission won't fit? What car is the Cleveland in? You've got me curious!
Mark
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Originally Posted by trinogt
Just a guess, but maybe the HV oil pump is too much for a stock pan??? I read in a reputable mag that the stock pump was great for street racing. Anything more, HV plus deep sump pan, so there is always oil for the pump, and it doesn't cavitate...
So, you have a transmission to go with that 400, since a Cleveland transmission won't fit? What car is the Cleveland in? You've got me curious!
Mark
So, you have a transmission to go with that 400, since a Cleveland transmission won't fit? What car is the Cleveland in? You've got me curious!
Mark
The car? Take a gues. The engine did not come in the front and it is a Ford.
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That compression is very high and I like to see all the cylinders with 10% of the highest. That leaves only one bad cylinder tho. Since the two lowest cylinders are right next to each other you may have head gasket issues. You may have an old high compression engine that has been detuned to run on pump gas which would explain some of the temperature issues. A high volume pump will not starve for oil in a stock pan unless you are running very high RPMs.
I have posted this before:
Compression pressure, approximate @ cranking speed :
8.0---140PSI
9.0---160
10.0--180
11.0--200
I have posted this before:
Compression pressure, approximate @ cranking speed :
8.0---140PSI
9.0---160
10.0--180
11.0--200
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Originally Posted by Torque1st
I have posted this before:
Compression pressure, approximate @ cranking speed :
8.0---140PSI
9.0---160
10.0--180
11.0--200
Compression pressure, approximate @ cranking speed :
8.0---140PSI
9.0---160
10.0--180
11.0--200
G
Posting Legend
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 30,255
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Actually a long duration cam may reduce them but not enough to do much good. Check with user Danlee for cam recommendations if you are interested in that. You need to figure out why those two cylinders are low.
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From: Eustis FL
the running conditions were not listed, so I could not tell what rpm or speed the vehicle was running at when this occurs... So, I was going on a hunch! What speed was it at just before 'highway speed' when the radar detector sounded? lol
I am guessing then, that you have a Pantera? Awesome! I would love to have one... You should have a 4 bolt main block then, no?
I would also like to have a Bricklin. Another cool 351C car! I could have bought one back about '96 for $10,000 asking price... No idea what they were worth, or are now...
Mark
I am guessing then, that you have a Pantera? Awesome! I would love to have one... You should have a 4 bolt main block then, no?
I would also like to have a Bricklin. Another cool 351C car! I could have bought one back about '96 for $10,000 asking price... No idea what they were worth, or are now...
Mark
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Yea it's a Pantera:
http://www.rc-tech.net/pant/large.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/per2/71pantera05small.jpg
It is getting so I can not run over 45 very long. I ran about 30 miles to a drive-in a couple weeks ago and I had to stop on the way to let it cool a while. I was doing 55 or less. I came back at 50 but still spooky hot. TMeyer is building me the lower end for a 400 and I have CHI heads on order. I am going to swap it out. It has been a strong engine except for this. It was built up and ran by the previous owner and I found a lot of things he really didn't know what he was doing. I had to adjust/tune almost everything. For instance, he had the distributor weights with monster springs which did not allow any advance so he had the timeing advanced from idle up. I had re-built the carb and changed everything from air bleeds, fuel bleeds power valve, jets, got it right on. What a runner.
http://www.rc-tech.net/pant/large.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/per2/71pantera05small.jpg
It is getting so I can not run over 45 very long. I ran about 30 miles to a drive-in a couple weeks ago and I had to stop on the way to let it cool a while. I was doing 55 or less. I came back at 50 but still spooky hot. TMeyer is building me the lower end for a 400 and I have CHI heads on order. I am going to swap it out. It has been a strong engine except for this. It was built up and ran by the previous owner and I found a lot of things he really didn't know what he was doing. I had to adjust/tune almost everything. For instance, he had the distributor weights with monster springs which did not allow any advance so he had the timeing advanced from idle up. I had re-built the carb and changed everything from air bleeds, fuel bleeds power valve, jets, got it right on. What a runner.
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From: Eustis FL
You are putting a 400 in a Pantera? How will the ZF transaxle bolt up to it, since the 400 uses a big block pattern?
How hard will it be to yank the engine from this car? I don't imagine it will be as easy as a front engine car... Does it drop out from the bottom?
I hope you can find the problem soon... I would hate to have a car like that sitting at home!
Mark
How hard will it be to yank the engine from this car? I don't imagine it will be as easy as a front engine car... Does it drop out from the bottom?
I hope you can find the problem soon... I would hate to have a car like that sitting at home!
Mark
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I have an extra bell housing I bought and I am going to make an adapter plate, mill down the old bell housing and weld on the adapter plate to keep my distance from the Transaxle the same. The second car is very rough. It is sitting in the back of the garage in line for restoration. If you like the pantera you can still find re-buildable ones for 12-15K. The fact that they use Ford V8's is awsome! (which means a guy like me can work on it) It's what makes the car fun. I go to Autozone to get parts, they ask me what car I just tell the Ford mustang, 4 bolt cleveland, not windsor (you got to watch that). That and no one knows what they are. It's funy to because everones an expert. If I park it at a car show I just walk up sit down and listen to what everyone starts quoting as fact "That's a Lambo that some one has shoe horned a V8 into" or It's this, it's that, they made 28 of them, their a special that. The stuff people say are facts are really funny.
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From: Eustis FL
"Second' car? Haha. You don't wanna tell, do ya? lol
That is hilarious what people say about the Pantera!
I went to an 'exotic car show' in Calgary a couple years back, and saw three or four Panteras there. People spent more time looking at them than the Ferarris! They were drawn to the huge tires out back, I think... How hard are the ZF's to come by? It would make a cool project platform to have one, mated to a 351C, and look for a body to throw it in for kicks. Have you even seen the Bricklin? Super 'safe' car (known as SV-1, or 'Safety Vehicle 1) with integral body beams and roll cage, gullwing doors, acrylic panels bonded to fiberglass body. Built in Canada, and came out before the De Lorean. Some 1500 cars were made before bankruptcy shut it down (not enough production).
I mentioned a 351C front engine, but I believe it was actually a 351W, after losing a supply of 360 AMC motors...
Sorry for the long stray!
Mark
That is hilarious what people say about the Pantera!
I went to an 'exotic car show' in Calgary a couple years back, and saw three or four Panteras there. People spent more time looking at them than the Ferarris! They were drawn to the huge tires out back, I think... How hard are the ZF's to come by? It would make a cool project platform to have one, mated to a 351C, and look for a body to throw it in for kicks. Have you even seen the Bricklin? Super 'safe' car (known as SV-1, or 'Safety Vehicle 1) with integral body beams and roll cage, gullwing doors, acrylic panels bonded to fiberglass body. Built in Canada, and came out before the De Lorean. Some 1500 cars were made before bankruptcy shut it down (not enough production).
I mentioned a 351C front engine, but I believe it was actually a 351W, after losing a supply of 360 AMC motors...
Sorry for the long stray!
Mark