Well, I havent been here in a good while (about 2 weeks), I've been too busy with work and putting together what I had hoped to be a future. I'm talking of a future as a licensed Florida contractor. Alot of you may not be too interested in a subject like this, but if you think you may even remotely consider buying a home here one day, then the following reading will be of IMMENSE benefit to you with regard to what the building industry is doing down here and what to watch out for as a consumer.

First a little history about myself. I have been a licensed contractor in one state or another for the better part of my entire life (even if it has been a relatively short life so far at the age of 33). I have worked in every trade imaginable with the exception of road construction. This does not make me an expert in all areas (duh), and even though I know much more than does the average home owner about HVAC, electrical, and plumbing - I have no where near the knowledge or experience of tradesmen who are dedicated to these particular fields.

I have devoted the last 10 years of my being to exterior remodeling (windows, siding, decks, patio enclosures, screen rooms, soffits, and gutters.) I do very high quality work - and when I add an enclosure, the new "room" often makes the existing home look pretty shabby unless it gets a complete face lift. My qualifications consist of my history as a licensed contractor in the states of New York and Michigan. I have subbed only for high end, high paying companies - and even then only to fill my time between my own jobs.
My work is so good, I have recieved two hundred dollar tips on jobs which cost thousands to begin with!

Michigan is a state which requires whats called a "maintenance and alteration contractor" test in order to obtain a license. New York requires no testing of which I am currently aware.

Florida is the most overly regulated state I've ever had the displeasure of having to deal with. It's a good ole' boys network here - everyone knows everyone in the industry - some companies are even connected through blood lines. You can't fight them either - the builders, judges, and licensing officials are all the same people.

Cheap building methods are the rule here - along with paltry wages and heavy use of illegal labor. Theres more than one kind of illegal labor here also. They try stressing their methods as being "balanced engineering" - meaning they avoid methods which are considered "overbuilt", and then claim to pass the savings on to the consumer. Call it what you like - it's still what I call cheap.
And nothing gets passed to the consumer except for the crap substandard housing they got suckered into for the price. I have NEVER seen such shoddy levels of workmanship or low quality of materials used elsewhere. Every sub division I go to - it's the same cheap material and the same cheap labor.

Unsuspecting home buyers have no idea what lies underneath all the pretty stucco and plastered drywall. And even if most do drop in from time to time to "oversee" the construction of their new homes - for the most part they have no idea what to look for.

Want the skinny on the low cost of homes in Florida? It has nothing to do with cost of living factors - the cost of living here is not any lower - rents are, but rent alone does not constitute cost of living, other costs are more expensive than in the north so cost of living actually balances out more or less. The low cost comes at a price, and the builder is not the one who
pays that price, you do, it's called LOW QUALITY. In fact the builders here actually make MORE money than their northern counterparts do.

How is this possible when selling an equally sized home at 2/3's the cost?
Markup. Every company has it - it's what covers non specific overhead and profits. Without markup you cannot maintain a business. Without it, you cannot afford to go on offering your services or product to the next customer in line. This is accepted truth - however these builders have made an art of exploiting everyone with it.

A builder in the north has to deal with more savvy buyers. He has to deal with working people who won't take crap or accept low quality for the most part. He has to deal with professional licensed subs who do business in a very competitive and mostly unregulated industry. They won't work for free - and don't have to give their services away just to meet bills. He has higher costs in materials. All of this drives prices up, so to remain competitive the builder must have sharply honed accounting skills. He must use a modest markup to remain competitive since his hard costs are so high to begin with.

In Florida....welcome to the club. Most customers are retirees or first home buyers who have never swung a hammer in their lives. Builders make profuse use of subs who are able to offer the lowest bids because of mostly unskilled non english speaking illegal labor. Other subs are large legally licensed companies offering their services in heavily regulated trades - the work is then illegally subbed again to unlicensed professionals (like me). We recieve a dictated piece rate for our work. No allowance is made or given for overhead - which we ALL have, regardless of how big or how small we may be. Trade for trade, it comes out to a high wage - comparable to northern STARTING wages for the same trades. The catch? We must pay all of our own liability insurances and must obtain a state waiver for compensation insurance. We are also required to incorporate since sole proprietors are not allowed to operate a construction business in Florida. Compare this to a carpenter working on a crew up north for 23.00 an hour and pays no insurance costs and is provided with comp insurance as well.

Materials and methods used in homes down here would not be considered in projects I've been involved with up north. Trusses are installed with advanced stages of mold on them. OSB sheets are installed which have been left out in the rain to get wet and swell - some walls look as if they've been sheethed with two different thicknesses of sheething. Stucco is installed over lathe placed directly over plywood - no vapor barrier installed. Walls are framed with studs of dubious quality at best - you can run a string from one end of a 20 ft wall to the other end and fit your thumb in some of the gaps between the string and the wall - God forbid siding goes on a wall like this instead of stucco.
Double plates do not exist on interior walls down here. Headers are often no more than a 2x4 placed on it's flat. 16 o.c construction is unheard of down here. These are not exceptional examples - this is the norm in all projects I have been involved with, I may only go from house to house installing siding or soffit, but that dosent mean that I can't take time to appreciate the other trade work while I'm there. Haven't found much to appreciate so far.

All of the factors mentioned in the previous three paragraphs come together to let the Florida builder offer a home at two thirds the cost of a similar home built in the north. His hard costs are so much lower that he can afford to add a much greater markup and still come out being much cheaper in price.

Example;...............Builder in suburban north area..........Builder in Florida

1.) Property selling price..........35,000.00....................12,000 .00
2.) Material cost...................102,000.00................. ...71,000.00
3.) Labor cost........................78,340.00............. .......48,435.00
4.) Total hard cost................215,340.00...................1 31,435.00
5.) Average markup....................23%..................... .......40%...
6.) Markup =..........................49,528.00.............. ......52,565.00
1.) Selling price of
1600 SF home with attached
2 car garage on 90x100 lot .....264,868.00.................. 184,000.00

These builders dont work for free, and they're not prone to accept less
profits because of the fabled lower cost of living. You get what you pay for - and this especially applies to tradesmen. Compensated hourly tradesmen and adequetely paid licensed subs do take more pride in their work and are
willing to spend more time on a particular job to do things right. Unskilled
illegal laborers are whipped in line to knock jobs out asap. Unlicensed sub (even highly skilled ones) are forced to cut corners at times to finish a job and get on to the next. They can't just go anywhere - the strict regulations in this state make it impossible to branch off on your own without a serious commitment in money and time - so they must work for dictated low piece rates and try to recover thier overhead costs with speed.

Only the builder makes money here. If it were not for my being here due to my dear mothers health conditions - none of this would affect me. I cannot believe the hoops they are putting me through. Somehow, none of my out of state references or many references from satisfied homeowners holds weight as proof of my competency here. My high marks and test scores for Michigan are worthless - and my older New York licenses are worth less than toilet paper here. All this they tell me in the interests of protecting the consumer from unscrupulous contractors - in the mean time the licensed good ole' boys are screwing everyone in sight - from the subs, to the home owners, to even the over worked and under paid illegals.

I would have went to a builders forum to vent this out - but none are very active - so I chose my favorite truck forum to vent in!

 

That was very informative for a soon to be Construction Manager. Thank you for the insite and good luck with your liescense (sp).

 

Wow, that's crazy. We had an overflow of out-of-state contractors come to Oregon in the 70's and build some real winners. Now they make you take a manditory 16hr class ($150), then take a test, ($100), before you pay a few hundred for the license. With the proof of insurance and bond, the start up costs can be a bit much. At least starting an LLC is pretty easy here. Has it improved quality? Not much, but the state takes a bigger cut now.

Sounds like the Ol' boys down there have their piece of the pie and don't want to let go.

Then there's Idaho, where you don't need to be licensed unless you do public works - and certain counties you don't even need a permit to build residential, just electrical and plumbing. Those guys know how to do it right. I was just amazed when I looked around and saw the quality. For the most part I couldn't find shoddy work. It's just the oposite of what you'ld think - they take pride in the work. We'll see how long that lasts. They just got a fed grant for 1.8 Bil. to improve the roads. When they start building developments that finish a house a day - I bet licensing will soon follow. It's really too bad.

 

There's much more to the problem than I expounded on earlier - I was in a bit of a rush so to speak, and I've written a book already...lol. Even so, I'll go a few steps further.

There are three basic types of contractor's license in Florida, a registered contractor's license can be issued by any county which sponsors a registered contractor's examination. There are many types of registered contractor - R.General contractor,
R.Residential contractor, R.Roofing contractor, R.Specialty structure contractor, etc.
A registered contractor's license is only good for the county it is registered in. Reciprocation is available between counties so long as your test scores are made available for review by each reciprocating county. Reciprocation fees vary but typically work out to about each 125.00 per year. The initial books and examination for any county registered license will run you about 750.00.

Then there's the Florida certified contractor's license. This basically covers the same categories of licensure as do the registered licenses - but your allowed to work state wide with only minimal county level interferance. The problem here is that you must show a minimum of 30,000.00 in assets. You must also make all of your banking statements for the last year available for their review - at all times during the past year at least one of your accounts must always have had a balance of not less than 10,000.00 in it. Books and fee's for the certified license can run as high as 1,000.00 total.

Then there's the mechanical licenses, these incorporate laws applied at both the state and federal levels and are only available in the form of a statewide certified license. I do not know much more about these since they basically cover the three trades I know least about personally.

In addition to the trade licenses there's the necessary business and occupational licenses. Then there's an additional license which allows you to be licensed - weird..
Sole proprietors may own a construction company - but may not exempt themselves from compensation, only a member of a corporation may do that - so you end up incorporating your business as well so that you can get the waiver, either that or pay the outrageous comp fees dictated by the state - roofing is currently at 32.00 per hundred in payroll. No insurance company will write a comp policy for you unless you show at least 2 employees with a minimum of 20,000 payroll for the year. You must then pay a deposit of 50% up front to start the policy - that's 3,200.00 up front (small wonder the good ole' boys like using illegals and unlicensed subs - illegals don't exist, and an injured sub would be in just as much trouble as his boss for doing unlicensed activity if he reported it as a job injury).

Just to qualify to sit for the test (and pay it's 160.00 fee), you need to show a minimum of 4 years verifiable experience in the trade in which you seek licensure.
No problem you think - until you find out that the department your dealing with does not accept proof of experience from any source other than a Florida licensed contractor.

Good luck getting a referral from one of these good ole' boys - they have no reason to create additional competition for themselves - (especially if they know your good), no, they would much rather have you out there making them rich for pennies on the dollar. Somehow, the regulating bodies in charge of licensing can't make the connection that there is a conflict of interest here.

Licensed contracting companies are the biggest beneficiaries of unlicensed activity - they perpetuate it the most! The building departments just turn a blind eye. These building departments will snap you in half if they find you contracting without a
license - but I have literally seen my boss give one of them a wink on my jobsite when he said - "Oh Frank?, he works by the hour", they then both laughed it off - boy was I shocked.

The consumer really gets cheated here. The good intentioned highly skilled tradesman gets cheated also. Consumers are usually forced to choose between a handful of local contractors to perfrom any given type of job - and very little competition means that markups remain very high - (I've seen 100% in residential remodeling work.) In the meantime unlicensed subs are used to do the work. Their dictated rates remain low.
They cannot offer their very valuable and professional services directly to the homeowner in order to make much better money. The homeowner is deprived of these good services and the good price savings which would come with them. The licensed middle men laugh all the way to the bank - and it's the local and state governments which ensures that this system of doing business as usual continues.

This form of regulation does nothing for quality in construction - if anything it encourages shoddy work. Companies can afford to pay less attention to customer satisfaction since they are much less likely to be replaced with another company - and in the end, they're all the same for the most part anyway. There's so much work - these companies can pick and choose, they could never handle all of it even if they wanted to.

Why is it that the majority of housing quality complaints which make headlines come from Florida? Hurricanes? - there's no excuse for the damage these homes take from hurricane winds. They fall apart like matchsticks. It would take an F4 tornado to do the same damage to northern homes that I've seen done to homes here from 160 mph wind gusts.

Let's just consider the roof systems for a moment. Most northern homes are built using 2x10 rafters placed 16 o.c. and attached to either a 2x12 or structural lam beam ridge. They are then sheathed with either 5 ply 1/2 CDX or 4 ply 3/4 CDX. Yes sidewalls do get sheathed with 7/16'ths OSB in some homes, but we're just talking of roofs here. In Florida the typical roof structure consists of moldy, and sometimes warped 2x4 trusses nailed 24 o.c. and sheathed with 7/16th's OSB - that's it. I hate OSB as a roofing sheathing. Every home here ends up with varying degrees of sagging in the roof between the 24 o.c. trusses - sometimes it happens right away in new homes located in unfinished development communities. When the sun is shining directly over the affected part of the roof you cannot tell, but once it starts setting beyond it and the shadow lines start appearing - boy is it horrible looking.

I have seen remodeling siding jobs around 20 squares in size signed up for 13,500.00 - with window trim. This is comparable with the remodeling prices of larger companies up north. The difference is those companies provided installers with a premium panel to work with - these guys use a builder's panel which is only slightly better than Home Depot's product. Also I would make in the area of 2,700.00 installing this job up north - down here this is a 1,200.00 job.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm actually for some regulation in this industry. It serves a good purpose if used correctly and applied with common sense. As a licensed contractor in a regulated state you enjoy a higher status than you would in unregulated states. Contractors as a whole must show at least some form of competency also with a system like this. Homeowners also recieve the benefit of knowing that their contractor has met with some sort of sanctioned qualifications.
But this is extreme - it benefits no one but those select few who know the right people. This is the most imbalanced situation I've seen. The licensing process is
used as a yoke to manipulate everyone and dictate the economy.It's a tool.

 

Sounds like the developers have done a little lobbying down there. From what you describe, they are the only winner I can see.

I've heard of people going down there to work for a while. I thought about it after the hurricanes. Go down and help some people out, make a little money, change of scenery type of thing. But with the red tape there's no way. Hurricane blows your roof off, better buy blue tarps and wait a few months.

California has a similar licensing system that makes it hard for contractors from neighboring states to work there, yet makes it easy for contractors from that state to come here and work. It's one of the reasons for the inflated housing market, lack of competition and high overhead.

One practice I've seen happening in the last few years is wrapping sheetrock around interior window openings instead of wood trim. The Californians moving up and buying houses here don't seem to mind it. To me, it's like paying for power windows and seats in a new truck and not getting it, because it's the "in" thing - yet, still having to pay for it.

The roofing systems down there are pretty standard for low snow load conditions. I even used OSB on my own roof, but then I don't weather many hurricanes.

If it was me, I'd probably move mom someplace else..

Good luck

 

Florida has had a reputation for real estate scams for decades and every hurricane exposes the shoddy construction. Im puzzled that you didnt at least hear of that before moving there.

California does have complicated contractor licensing regulations, but an endless supply of illegal labor. Forget about getting a job supervising unless you speak Spanish. These two factors lead to a lot of unlicenced businesses doing residential and small commercial construction work. At least the earthquake codes mean strong, if not well finished houses. The only union jobs are on government projects and big private ones like refineries.

Jim

 

Your posting is so full of errors and false statements that it is difficult to know where to begin. Basically, it sounds like the typical "sour grapes" from someone that comes into this state, that knows everything, and wants Florida to do things the same way as their state does.
For a little background, I am a Licensed Florida General Contractor, and have handled residential, and commercial projects, throughout most of the country.
My license allows me to build, and I have built, any size structure from the smallest room addition to the largest commercial building.
I'm not sure where you got this "good old boy" image, unless it came from the fact that you can't figure out why some people can get licensed and you can't. The fact that you know construction in Michigan, and New York is credible for those states, but has little bearing on what we build in Florida. You had to worry about snow loads, and building the structure to handle the additional weight. We don't have that problem, but we do have to build our roof so that it stays attached at 140MPH winds, which is something that you are not familiar with.
I can build any structure in this State, but I would not expect California to accept my qualifications because I am not familiar with structures that are exposed to earthquakes.
When I took my GC test less than 10% passed. That's right...nine out of ten people failed the test. Those that failed were a lot like you. They had a lot of construction experience, and no knowledge of what it takes to financially, and legally, run a business. Those items will compose 2/3's of the very long, and very difficult test. Consturction knowldege is the other 1/3.
In this state, as in others, one of the leading consumer complaints about contractors is that they fail to complete a project. The contractor goes belly up, or cannot juggle his finances to complete a project. There are many homeowners that were left holding the bag without a completed project, even tho they had given the GC most of the money.
To be licensed in this state you not only have to have a construction background, you also have to show that you have the legal, and financial knowledge necessary to start, and sucessfully run, a construction company. In addition, you have to show that you have the minimum financial resources to start a construction company, and that you are personally free from financial, and legal problems, in your past.
Most of these things are kinda hard for someone that can swing a hammer to understand. This state is interested in protecting the homeowner and they do make the perspective contractors jump thru hoops to insure that protection for the consumers. I had to do it, and others have done it, so why do you feel that you should be exempt? I've lived here all of my life and I didn't get any special breaks.
Now, on to your construction knowledge. That is all very admirable, and will certainly come in handy. By the same token, most every project that you build, unless it is some small remodel job, will require an architect's seal, and/or an engineer's stamp of approval. Basically what that means is that those professionals will be preparing the drawings and telling you how to build it. This state also has some of the finest Building Inspectors anywhere in the country. Those inspectors will be making sure that the drawings are followed. The point of this is that if you can read, and follow a blueprint, that is the extent of your vast amount of knowledge that you will use. Unless you are going to be a one man band, your employees, or the subs that you hire, are going to be doing the actual construction anyway, so again, your management skills are more important that your construction skills.
As far as illegal aliens working on construction projects, you are just venting with no knowlege other than what you may have heard from someone else that is also not informed. I'm sure that there are some small contractors that may hire a few illegal aliens, and get away with it,.....
... temporarily. I say temporarily because the building officials, OSHA, the local law enforcement, and homeland security, are all looking for these people.
My basic insurance required to even renew my license is $10,000/year. Each year, my books are auditied to insure compliance with payroll, and workman's comp requirements, etc. If I have a good year, then I get to pay aditional insurance premiums to cover the projects I have completed. A $30-40,000 insurance payment is not unusual for a few million worth of projects. If I mess around with illegal employees, I stand a better than average chance of getting caught, as well as a excellent chance that I will lose my license. Lost license means lost business, means no income, means lose everything. Maybe in your area, but not many of us that have earned our license in this state, are that stupid.
As to your comments about construction quality. Again, little basis of fact, and a lot of venting. I would imagine that even in the great State of New York, there are contractors that are not interested in turning out a quality project. Not all skill levels are the same. Again, we have fine building inspectors, but even then an occasional shoddy project will slip thru the net. 30 years ago more of them may have slipped thru the inspections, now, very very seldom does it happen. I'll bet that i your area, as down here, we have a few "unlicensed" people that pass them selves off as contractors, grab the money, slap up a piece of junk, and are gone. That happens everywhere, and has no bearing on our licensing procedures, other than the fact that some people, who get frustrated by our license requirements, decided to work illegally, instead of following the right road to success.
In any case, if you are really interested in getting a license in this state, do your homework and gather the knowledge that you currently do not have, so that you can earn a license. Get rid of the "I already know everything" attitude and I'm sure that you can do it.
If you would like some assistance from one of the "good old boys" that did apply himself and obtain the knowledge, I would be more than happy to help.
Ron CGC-046476.

 

Well Put Ronnie 44! I am a Southern Boy, and yes possibly a good Ole boy. I am 36. I am a Certified State licensed HVAC contractor in Miami CAC#1813374. I had no one hold my hand, scratch my back, nor am I lining anyones pockets. I busted my A$$ to get to where I am at. Yet I am still struggiling! I am going through a license change from my sole proprietership to my corporation. My workmans comp was $8,000 a year for me, the owner, only employee. I don't know where your at, but the inspectors here in Miami Dade and Broward Counties crawl in your A$$ and out your mouth. The police department set's up road blocks to look for illegal contractors. If your van or truck has no lettering on it (Magnetic signs are illegal) they will pull you over and legally arrest you, give you a ticket and make you prove that you are a licensed buisness. The Florida Dept. Of Buisness and Proffesional Regulation will conduct stings for un-licensed contractors. Yes, you have to jump through hoops. Yes I get pissed off and have to replace the office phone every 3 months when dealing with the state, but what am I gonna do? I am proud that I am licensed & legal. I don't sell my license number to anyone, F0cK it's mine, I earned it. I sent in my application the other week for a change of status, guess what, A typo in THERE application has caused a delay. What do I do, re-submit, smash another office phone, and move on knowing that I have 2 jobs at about $10,000.00 hanging in the balance. All due respect, Suck it up and deal with it. I did!
Al

 

Hey there Ronnie you seem like a pretty good guy. On some issues you may be right and on others we'll simply agree to disagree. I've seen far too much of what I'm talking about to be told I'm wrong. I'm hoping that maybe you are right about what you say in other parts of Florida - but in this area there certainly is a good ole' boys network in place and running things.

Argue all you wish about differing construction methods and their uses.
A 2x4 is a 2x4, be it here in Florida or up in New York - and cheap is still cheap.

It's true Florida does not have to build to accomodate for snow loads, but they should be built the same way, using the simple principles of shear mass and weight to help accomodate wind loads. Ever see those once in a blue moon hurricanes which run all the way up the east coast into the new england area? Many of these rare storms retain almost as much wind velocity in that area that they originally landed with in Florida or the
Carolina's - yet the buildings suffer far less damage from them.

Next subject...protecting consumers through having strict licensing requirements of contractors. It is a fact that larger siding and roofing specialty contractors (as well as many certified residential contractors)
are using unlicensed piece rate crews to install jobs for them. This saves them a ton of money as opposed to hiring people by the hour. Most of it in insurance money and tax money.

Many homeowners buy a job from a salesman or company owner. They solicit bids from several licensed professionals in their area, and unless their the types who shop by price only,they weigh various issues and take everything into consideration when deciding for themselves who will get the job. The truth is this, when a homeowner picks your company above the others what they're really buying is you. For whatever reason important to them, they feel that you are the most qualified and the most trustworthy. Here's what happens next, the job gets scheduled and an unlicensed sub comes along to do the work. The sub is instructed to lie by saying he is an employee to make the homeowner feel more secure. Some unlicensed subs are very good craftsmen and the job goes well. Some are clowns who will "give it a shot".
These turn into nightmares that the homeowner did not deserve or expect when buying the owner. This situation happens time and again everyday.
The fact is in situations like this the customer has been swindled - and this is unethical at the very least (this coming from a guy who knows nothing of business ethics according to you).

I made a few calls today. I got approved to take my registered specialty contractors license examination. I am very happy about this, but that dosent change my opinion that the system needs a bit more common sense tweaking.
There are a ton of unscrupulous licensed people making big money here, and in the meantime there are many good craftsmen who could do a much better job but can't get a break. I will pass my test, the hard part was getting the approval to sit for it. I have a few things to learn regarding the law portion of the exam - I have the business end down. The most important thing to remember about running any business is honesty. When my customers buy from me - they will get who they pay for. I won't be the cheapest guy around and I'm not interested in that. I will expect to make a reasonable profit on every job I do so that I can responsibly meet my future commitments I make.
My word will actually mean something to my customers AFTER the sale.

Peace.

 

I wish you well. I do not doubt that you have seen a few less desireable contractors since you have been here. I also think that you will find their total numbers will be a small percentage of the total number of decent, rule following, licensed contractors in this state.
As far as construction methods..as I mentioned I have handled large projects all throughout the country. My specialty was building commercial bank buildings. I have worked with union crews in New York, some unusual crews in Saginaw, and farm boys in Iowa. I stand by my statement that building a structure in South Florida is nothing like anything built in the North. Not saying that the structures up north are inferior, just that there are huge differences that you either have to learn, or you will go broke doing something over and over.
I really do wish you well, but I hope the state does not reduce it's requirements. If you read my post again, you will see that I did not say anything about your ethics at all. I did mention, in a broad statement, that you still have a lot to learn. After you get your license, if you take your present attitude into a building department and expect them to do things your way, you will be sadly disappointed.
Let's just say that I was doing construction projects before your parents ever thought of having you. My last building was 80,000 sq ft, and 4+ million. If you want to succeed in construction you will learn, and accept, the way things are, just like I, and others did, and do, when we work in other areas. Just because it is different does not mean it's wrong. Accept the differences and move on with your life. You will have more money in your pocket if you do. It has nothing to do with a "good old boy" network. It has everything to do with a set of rules outlined by the governing body. These rules will change, and you either change, or you get left behind.
Good luck on your test and much success in your future.