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Forced Induction vs. High Compresssion

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Old May 18, 2005 | 02:38 AM
  #16  
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Fredric, did it orange peel horribly? And fish eye? Our camaro did too.. Give it 2 weeks to cure, then buff it out.. It will look great. Trust me.
 
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Old May 18, 2005 | 05:38 AM
  #17  
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Alrighty, I'll give that a try as at this point I have nothing to loose.

The paint is... um... textured and fuzzy. Though it dawned on me when I went to bed last night what happened - pollen
 
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Old May 18, 2005 | 09:35 PM
  #18  
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You two guys are great! I just love reading posts like these. And sure, I'll give you my experience on my one >100% VE engine: 355 SVO. Nothing of the line, all my pals told me I was sandbagging. It couldn't even turn over the tires. Now then, between 6500 and 7500 RPM, that was a different matter.
 
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Old May 18, 2005 | 10:26 PM
  #19  
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HK - and for a track, an engine like that would be absolutely awesome.

But was it fun to drive in traffic? Probably not...

But to each their own of course, I just happen to like building 'sleepers'.
 
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Old May 19, 2005 | 09:28 PM
  #20  
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Not fun at all. On more than one occasion I'd have someone pull up beside me and say: "Hey, I've heard about you, wanna run". Ok sure. After they TOAST me off the line I catch up and they would treat me like I was disrespected them or something. I've got to tell them that the race doesn't start till 80 or so. I built it as a top end runner with 275 gears (had 243's once just for kicks).

It was fun with a set of 409's but the 325's were just about right. Not fun at all light to light but after I twisted it up in first, banging those last four gears would go pretty quick.
 
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Old May 20, 2005 | 02:56 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by hkiefus
Eric moves it but doesn't answer it.
Sometimes due to time pressures I don't get a chance to answer. So I leave something for the rest of you to do. You would not believe the number of posts I move every day...

Originally Posted by frederic
...Actually, I have an answer if someone would like to put the money and effort into improving a design I and two friends put together about 5 years ago...

What we did was extend the length of a timing chain, and slapped it on the front of a Buick V6, then pinched the slack with two small gears, which were firmly mounted on a sliding bar and track. A double pneumatic cylinder controlled the position of the two gears, thus moving the slack to the left and right of the engine, thus controlling which side of the timing gears the extra length of chain was on - thus directly controlling the timing relationship between the cam and the crank. We had interesting results, and it worked pretty well considering it was a homemade pile of junk - for about 10 minutes or so until it started to pull apart from the loads the timing chain experiences under hard acceleration and rude decceleration - and it fell apart and the engine of course committed suicide. We also operated the pneumatic actuator using ball valves off shop air, so we didn't have any way of controlling the timing relationship in a more variable sense... it was either "full left" or "full right", but it was a start. This was a diversion from the reasons why we were working together with Buick V6's in the first place, so when it disintegrated we simply put the broken bits in the "junk pile" and went back to forced induction experiments.
I thought about doing that a number of years ago also but I was going to use engine oil pressure instead of air pressure. The volume of engine oil used is very low and oil is non compressible. It gets interesting with a DOHC engine since you can vary overlap as well as overall timing.
 

Last edited by Torque1st; May 20, 2005 at 03:07 AM.
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Old May 20, 2005 | 08:26 AM
  #22  
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My Continental is the opposite - I'm very pleased with the off the line performance, and even acceleration from highway speeds. I have more than enough to play if I want to (which I seem to do less and less these days), but it maxes out around 85 as far as hard acceleration. I've crossed the 100mph barrier no problem, just after 85 it's almost "factory" in its acceleration. At around 110, I have to back off because the air ride suspension likes to start this rocking oscillation thing which I don't feel is safe at all.

Then again, I drive it exclusively on the street, so I don't need 110 mph. But the body style is so unassuming and grandparent-like, I did have much fun with it over the years.



Originally Posted by Torque1st
I thought about doing that a number of years ago also but I was going to use engine oil pressure instead of air pressure. The volume of engine oil used is very low and oil is non compressible. It gets interesting with a DOHC engine since you can vary overlap as well as overall timing.
Hydraulic would be much better for control, and you could probably tap the power steering pump if you increased the volume of the storage tank or used a remote tank. Ultimately that's where we wanted to go, but we didn't get that far due to issues with the hacked up timing cover leaking, and the sliding chain "pinching" mechanism not being constructed in a reliable way. But even though the experiment disintegrated and ruined a perfectly good junkyard engine, it did work a short time and we were able to adjust the timing on the fly. So someone with tons of time, access to dirt cheap or free machining (anyone have a Smithy?) and a junkyard test motor could expand on this and make something fairly useful.
 
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Old May 20, 2005 | 06:54 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by frederic
But to each their own of course, I just happen to like building 'sleepers'.
so do I, and my friends.
One has a 4.0l turbocharged Inline 6 with around 450hp (only running 10psi) in his Volvo 244 (prehaps the ultimate "Grandpa" car).
He wears a tartan golfers hat when he drives it.
The cars he pulls up next too have to idea what has hit them when a Volvo hauls away from the lights spinning the wheels into 3rd.
What is most amazing around 1200hp is capable from the same engine, he felt that would be a little excessive.
Another has a rather standard looking Ford Escort with 900hp from a triple rotor.
I personally wish my car was a little more conservative looking standard, even still, it amazes people when I am still struggling for traction at 100mph...
 
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Old May 20, 2005 | 09:52 PM
  #24  
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Tapping off the engine oil is usually easy to do and with the pressures involved you can use air cylinders rather than the big hydraulic cylinders.
 
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Old May 22, 2005 | 10:14 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by BigF350
even still, it amazes people when I am still struggling for traction at 100mph...
Well, lets just say I've learned not to overbuild. And this is not a slight on your decisions, merely a reflection of various vehicles I've built over the years where I couldn't take advantage of all the power, due to other limitations of the vehicle.

This is one of the reasons why I'm building yet another twin-turbo stroker truck, this time with a massive, heavy crewcab. She weighs in a 6997 with both tanks full, and my bedbox about 2/3 full of electronic EFI crap. While extra weight requires extra power, the extra weight also gives you traction to use that power, so if one overbuilds as some of us tend to do all to often... LOL.

And since she's 2wd and not 4wd, it's a little more balanced since I don't have a massive, heavy axle and a transfer case up front.
 
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Old May 23, 2005 | 08:17 AM
  #26  
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My car was built purely for top speed - something I haven't been able to realise, as the gearing causes it to hit the rev limiter (6200rpm -200rpm higher than standard) at 197mph...
My calculations say it would be good for 223mph if I can change the driver.

The primary reason I struggle for traction is I have intentionally not upgraded the tyres, as I want them to remain the weakest link in the chain.
I know I am well and truly placing far more torque through the current differential than what it can handle stock (I have plumbed an old Auto trans cooler through the casing to minimise the heat at the higher speeds I frequent.
The problem is I don't have a cheap option to upgrade the rear differential (Its IRS...) unless I manage to find something exotic on the cheap...
So I currently limit the stress on the rear differential by fitting standard (high speed) road tyres.
And I only struggle for traction at 100mph on full accel changing from 3rd to 4th.

I could always turn traction control on couldn't I???
 
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Old May 23, 2005 | 05:45 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by BigF350
The primary reason I struggle for traction is I have intentionally not upgraded the tyres, as I want them to remain the weakest link in the chain.
This is very smart, and I'm doing the same thing. On the TT stroker dodge truck, I made the mistake of putting slicks on day one... and that resulted in everything between the flywheel and the rear tires, twisting and tearing at least once. It got expensive after a while, even with junkyard replacements and "monkey mechanic" rebuilds in the garage.

Originally Posted by BigF350
The problem is I don't have a cheap option to upgrade the rear differential (Its IRS...) unless I manage to find something exotic on the cheap...
I'm assuming you have an F350 with the 10.25 sterling rear? You know that's not the smallest rear you can shove in there
 
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Old May 23, 2005 | 08:27 PM
  #28  
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I have seen live axles fabricated to an independant set up, but it is VERY difficult.
I recall when the RS500 Cosworth Escort touring cars were throwing differentials every race, they fabricated a Ford 9" Crown wheel and pinion to fit in.
That took serious time and $$$ though.
It currently has a Dana M86. It contains the largest Cw&p that will fit in under the body.

My F350 is a Duallie, so it has the Dana 80 (Am pretty sure it has anyway).
I could always put some truck axles under my car!!!
Don't think it would be as good on the motorkhana though
 
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Old May 24, 2005 | 12:01 AM
  #29  
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From: Alberta
but back to my original inquery.The reason I asked is due to an ambition to build a big inch performance boat.A ship or large truck with a big block ie tons of power,and realatively cheap to run ie Propane for fuel.I like the 70's boats.I used to have a 76 Riviera with a 455.My buddy had a 75 Continental mit 460.
I love these cars and I think it would be ultimate to have one that would run 13s in the 1320, do 60 foot burnouts,chirp the tires in upshifts and burn 60 cent/ liter fuel.Like a 535 Cadillac with 2 turbos or a supercharger in a 75 Deville with a 6 speed,and a 4.10.Touring suspension setup and large 4 wheel discs with 17 inch rims,I think would be a quite unique,innovative and cool ride.
My question stems from the decision between compression or Forced induction as a way to get more power.Like was mentioned the NASCAR and Can Am racers of yore get like 800 hp out of N/A small blocks.I wasnt sure if the same performance can be realized at less disaterous RPMs.Also unsure wether a large displacement engine with plenty of tourque to start will benefit more from a supercharger with it's more low end gains or a turbo,with the power at higher RPM.
Back to my old buick,its factory rated 210 hp with 2.65 rear end was plenty to pass at 120 kmh.I begin to wonder if one really needs more than say 450 or 500 hp along with about 600 lbft or torque in a 5000 lb car.I am no math whiz so i havent done the calculations with wind resistance and weightto find exactly how much power i need to get the afore mentioned results in a 76 cadillac.
 
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Old May 24, 2005 | 12:15 AM
  #30  
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One for big F350, I wasnt aware of such coolness like a 2005 Falcon being around.Sounds awfully fast.Not many Rear wheel drives around here .Just Marauders,Mustangs,500 and the GT(who can afford one?)Everything is sinful Front Wheel drive now.Can one imagine how cool a rear wheel drive SHO would have been?
 
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