You should let us know if your mpg's are better...you changed the ones close to the motor right?

 

Soaking oxygen sensors in cleaner is not going to do a thing except spend your money without a return, these guys work at 600 degrees plus, if there is anything on them, it is usually burned off, most of the time with Ford's O2 they break down in the heater circuit, not the sensor side, or the heater becomes shorted to the sensor side. Broken wire

 

While you have very valid points, they do get a good coating of carbon on them that can foul the readings. I have personally been able to use a cleaner to "extend" the life of the sensor just a bit more. But this is only a temporary fix, as replacement is inevitable.

 

Something has to happen to the sensor over time, Ford say's they should be changed every 40.000 mi.

I know my sensors were bad, and my gas milage was around 10mpg and on the highway 11 mpg at best. Adding the sensors gave me 12.0 around town and 15.0 on the road. I feel better now, and just may keep my beast!

cobrah

 

I can guarantee you that if I have to pull an oxygen sensor on a 4.6 or 5.4 on the right bank, it is getting replaced because I saw information that was for the reason to go there in the first place, cleaning to me on this particular engine is not an option, the only way to clean an oxygen sensor is not by chemicals, but is by running a propane torch over the sensor and with a meter hooked up to the wiring watching the sensor signal responce, then and only then will it be said reusable. Most oxygen sensor can and will go 100,000 miles before replacement. 4.6 engines usually get 17-19mpg, 5.4, 13-15 mpg Broken wire

 

You replaced your sensors and everything is working good? Thats good. What sensors did you go with?

 

That is NOT cleaning, that is bench testing a sensor. You know this response sounds much the same as an article written by a professor from University of Texas Austin.

Now I am not saying that you can clean a sensor every time and have it continue to work. I am saying that it is worth a shot to clean them, as most failures occur because of build-up on the sensing element. But your response that "cleaning......is not an option" is wrong. You CAN clean these and sometimes they will continue to work. Now you are right if it is a high mileage sensor then sure, cleaning is pointless, because failure is inevitable. But your responses are of the nature that if you get a code, "replace it". Well that is a silly way to think, why not see why it has a code first, clean it, test it, and then if those fail, replace it. I just think that the replay you have are that all sensor codes mean replacement, and I think that is a bad bit of info for our members.

Oh and for your reading pleasure, here is a clip from an article on why O2 sensors fail. As you can see failure starts with a build-up on the sensor element.

As an oxygen sensor ages, contaminants from normal combustion and oil ash accumulate on the sensing element. This reduces the sensor's ability to respond quickly to changes in the air/fuel mixture. The sensor slows down and becomes "sluggish".

At the same time, the sensor's output voltage may not be as high as it once was, giving the false impression that the air/fuel mixture is leaner than it actually is. The result can be a richer-than-normal air/fuel mixture under various operating conditions that causes fuel consumption and emissions to rise.

The problem may not be noticed right away because the change in performance occurs gradually. But, over time, the situation will get worse, ultimately requiring the sensor to be replaced to restore peak engine performance.

 

Now for your learning pleasure o1,

Why do you want to work twice as hard as me? Why can I not clean and test at the same time? I don't want to work as hard as you....you say:[has a code first, clean it, test it, and then if those fail, replace it] and by the way, who said it had to set a code to fail? From what I posted, I stated that mine did NOT set a code..... and it did fail on the sensor side.... and I did replace it after I GOT A CODE WITH A NEW PCM INSTALLED. I am NOT going to pull bank 1 sensor 1 and put it back in used, Not that one.
And what's wrong with bench testing and cleaning at the same time? Do twice the work in half the time, you haven't even got yours cleaned yet, and I have already stuck mine back in, new or reused....
The only sensor that is worth cleaning at all is the one wire sensor, if the exhaust stream does not get up to temperature, it will cake just like you said, but the Ford oxygen sensor that is on the vehicle in question that this article is about is a 4 wire sensor not a 1 wire, 2 wires are ground,1 is for the heater circuit and the other for the sensor circuit, 1 wire is the 12 volt heater circuit power supply and the other 1 wire is the sensor return signal, now if the heater circuit fails internally, there is no chemical that is going to clean it and yes by nature it will set a code, if it fails externally like a blown fuse on the heater circuit, fix the problem and recheck, the heater will take care of this issue of buildup if it is working properly, if you have instrumention you will see this, if the heater circuit is working in a Ford system straight up, you will not find buildup of the nature you are talking about, there is no oil that an engine has that will let buildup happen at 600 degrees, if you think I am wrong, well do this little test, take a hot plate and put some oil on it, heat it to 600 degrees and let it go for an extended period of time just as if it was in the exhasut system, what do you think you are going to be left with, do the test before you respond again, why do you want to use chemicals?, is chemicals cleaner for the enviroment than a lit propane torch? Do you work for a chemical company selling chemicals that clean oxygen sensors, and by the way, please enlighten us by giving us the name of the Company and product that will clean off supposedly burned on ash off of an oxygen sensor. I don't want something to clean oil deposits, it needs to clean off burned on ash. I asked my supplier and he could not help me, they have 3600 stores nationwide.

How many oxygen sensors have you pulled from Ford 4.6 and 5.4 that can work after cleaning with chemicals, if you have cleaned one and it works, you better go back and check the heater circuit because it is not working. I don't think there is one person on this board that likes pulling any of these oxygen sensors out to clean them with a chemical and put it back in to see if the light comes on again. All that I said was, if I was going to pull one, like this, I would replace it, it is not going to make me go broke financially. If I can't afford to pay for a new oxygen sensor and have to resort to cleaning it with a chemical, I don't have enough money to run this truck let alone own it.

Next on the issue, stop quoting me, it is only pissing me off!

Next on the issue, what are your credentials?

 

I quoted you! Get over it, as I will continue to quote you. I want to make sure you know I am talking to you.

• I never said work twice as hard. If you have the ability to clean and test at the same time do it! If you do not its trail and error time. I am not sure about you, but I do not like to spend money where I do not need to. Also you act like pulling these sensors is a big deal, pop the wheel off and remove. And yes I have removed them and replaced them on an Expedition.
• Go back to O2 school little boy, as you have yet to teach me anything. Now to teach you. A FOUR-wire sensor has 1 Ground wire, 1 Signal Wire, and 2 Heater wires. Get your **** straight before you post it here.
• I pull O2’s on cars every month, install wideband's and tune, And I clean the old ones before we re-install.
• I am an Engineer with 15 years in the Oil Industry. Cars and racing have been hobby for that same amount of time. So yes I can afford to spend money like it grows on trees, but why waste it? Now that you know what I do, tell me what you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

....what are your credentials?

Crap, I did it again.
<O></O>

Oh, and I forgot. You stated at one point that the heater circuit is the primary failure of Ford O2’s. Please provide me the study for this, as I find it very difficult to believe that a research facility would take the time to cut open many O2’s to look at heater circuits. Not to mention that the act of cutting them open would most likely destroy the heater core, destroy the heater contact, or shatter the ceramic element.

 

I dont have anything to add about Oxygen Sensors... I just like to see forum users dish it out to each other... Round 3.... Ding Ding

 

it IS fun at times.

 

For the record... I dont mind if someone quotes me...

 

Well here you go then.

As far as I knew most people did not, unless they do not want people to use their words against them.

 

Well sonny boy, you not even wet behind the ears yet, I have 13 years in the Automotive electrics by itself, self employed for those years, Masters Degree in Driveability and Automotive Electrics, total of 31 years on the job, now as far as having a study on failures of Fords 4 wire, these are my own findings since the way we find the problems is learn by the information that is given by the way the Automotive Electrics and engines work together from original equipment information from the manufacturer, not a Haynes manual like you have, this is not done here by trial and error, I need to know what is going on, not cleaning it by chemicals stick it back in for what TRIALS AND ERROR, thats what you do, since I must guess that you do not even have a scanner to look at the oxygen sensor information( which I have and know how to use), you must also not have the correct information to test them with(which I have and know how to use), yes that is the way I test mine, sonny boy, or maybe you do have the scanner and information, you just don't know how to use them, sucks to be you. Anyone that has knowledge of the Ford heater circuit knows that you do not have to take them apart to see if they work or not, go back to school sonny boy, you have not even gotten into the same track as I have, you are so far behind me, your grandmother is ahead of you. Now as far as testing an O2, you must not have a graphing meter either or a scope(which I have 3 of them Fluke scopemeter 98, LS 2000 Sun oscope, and Snapon Mt 2400 Graphing Multimeter and I know how to use all three of them together), for you have no clue as to how to test and clean an oxygen sensor at the same time, why don't you get your crap straight before you post here, you have contridicted yourself so many times here it is not funny, ok, since I cannot convince you that you are wrong on the 4 wire, go back and read what you wrote, I'll write it for you, 4 wire sensor, you are going to teach me something, ok let me have it big boy, 1 ground wire, 1 sensor wire, 2 heaters wires, are you saying that Ford has two heaters or are you saying that Ford has a common ground for the Heater and sensor signal, how many others picked up on this problem he has drawn himself into, how does inductance happen with two grounds or two powers, it doesn't does it, no, it must have a power and a ground, not two of the same, take a look at any Ford 4 wire oxygen sensor wiring diagram if you have one, (if you don't, let me have your e-mail address and I will send you one for the Expedition,)and you will only find ONE heater in the O2 sensor not TWO, to explain this again in easier terms for you, to light a bulb just as the heater is wired, you need a power and a ground, not two powers or two grounds, so I guess I did teach you something, now fess up sonny boy! HA, HA clap, clap, clap, clap, ROTFLMAO........ Now you get over it kid, every once in a while, someone is going to know something more than me but right know I am the one with the education on this subject, I don't need any facility telling me we have to cut open oxygen sensors to see if they fail(tip) you can test the heater circuit with a scanner by watching and timing how long it takes for the oxygen sensor to start to work (20 seconds), then you watch and see how far it goes up 900mv than comes back down under 100mv, I just tested the whole oxygen sensor circuit and heater system, (tip) in the OEM Ford information it tells us that the heater system must send the oxygen sensor high in twenty seconds or the heater circuit could be at fault, take it out and hook battery power and ground to the heater while hooking the sensor to the red lead of the graphing meter positive and the leftover ground which is the sensor ground to the graphing meter ground, you have just hooked it up like it is in the vehicle, test it with propane, do it like it is in the vehicle, Snapon even tells you this in the Graphing meter help guides, (which you must not have)and make it work, it is that easy, you have not even removed it to clean it with your chemical, horse crap, get the tools and information, study it for 10 years, then you have grounds to buck heads with me.
By the way, what was the name of the chemical you use to clean your o2 with? Thats right, you didn't say, because there is none, ROTFLMAO again.
You must not have a hot plate either to see that you are wrong again by burniing off chemicals, ROTFLMAO again,,,,
Chemicals to fire is like playing, sizzors, rock, paper, Fire will smoke any chemical, if the fire can sustain the flame, but that has so little relevance here it still is not funny, ROTFLMAO.........
Here is a person that has alot of words with no power behinds him, just shooting his load and letting it land whereever it may, right now he is swallowing.

My wife downloaded a saying or maybe you would call it a quote, this is directed to you O1silvergt,
WIPE YOUR MOUTH, THERE IS STILL A TINY BIT OF BULL**** AROUND YOUR LIPS.

Thats funny, I am laughing so hard It's bringing tears to my eyes!ROTFLMAO....

You know you started this whole pile of snot, now let it be, If I speak, I speak to save someone some time, money and aggravation. I only am speaking from what I have seen and tested on my own. Not from some College paperwork that is 20 years old.

 

Well given the last few sentences from you and the derogatory (that means bad) remarks toward me, this will become nothing more than a pissing match from here on. So with that, this will be my last response to this.

Well OLD MAN you’re going to really like this. All the quotes!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

Well sonny boy, you not even wet behind the ears yet, I have 13 years in the Automotive electrics by itself, self employed for those years, Masters Degree in Driveability and Automotive Electrics, total of 31 years on the job

Well if you really have a Masters degree, I congratulate you, as I myself am working toward mine. But you really need to learn how to write. Your responses are very hard to read since you do not double space between sentences, use paragraphs, have run on’s, etc. etc., but all that is neither here nor there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

, now as far as having a study on failures of Fords 4 wire, these are my own findings since the way we find the problems is learn by the information that is given by the way the Automotive Electrics and engines work together from original equipment information from the manufacturer, not a Haynes manual like you have, this is not done here by trial and error, I need to know what is going on, not cleaning it by chemicals stick it back in for what TRIALS AND ERROR, thats what you do, since I must guess that you do not even have a scanner to look at the oxygen sensor information( which I have and know how to use), you must also not have the correct information to test them with(which I have and know how to use), yes that is the way I test mine, sonny boy, or maybe you do have the scanner and information, you just don't know how to use them, sucks to be you.

No I do not have a Haynes, wish I did though. I am happy you have all the high dollar tools at your disposal. Remember I do this as a hobby, so I have no need for those, but I do have a multi-meter and a torch. Yes I know how to test them, and as you stated above when you said it was the way clean them (yet I thought you said they could not be cleaned, I am confussed), but I corrected you since it is the way to test them. Do not remember let me refresh your memory.

This is your quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

the only way to clean an oxygen sensor is not by chemicals, but is by running a propane torch over the sensor and with a meter hooked up to the wiring watching the sensor signal response,

This was mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01silvergt

That is NOT cleaning, that is bench testing a sensor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

Anyone that has knowledge of the Ford heater circuit knows that you do not have to take them apart to see if they work or not, go back to school sonny boy, you have not even gotten into the same track as I have, you are so far behind me, your grandmother is ahead of you. Now as far as testing an O2, you must not have a graphing meter either or a scope(which I have 3 of them Fluke scopemeter 98, LS 2000 Sun oscope, and Snapon Mt 2400 Graphing Multimeter and I know how to use all three of them together),

You are right, you do not have to take the sensor apart to see if the heater circuit is working or not, a simple test with a meter can tell you that. But I ask you, why did it (the heater circuit) fail? To see that you will have to take it apart, and a study group would have done that. But that is besides that point, since on this and rereading your statement above you are correct. Also, no graphing meters here, just the good old trusty multi-meter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

for you have no clue as to how to test and clean an oxygen sensor at the same time,

I think the quote of myself above determined I know how to test one of these, but just incase you forgot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 01silvergt

That is NOT cleaning, that is bench testing a sensor.

Now as far as cleaning….. Wait let me bring this up from the bottom so we can answer this at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

By the way, what was the name of the chemical you use to clean your o2 with? Thats right, you didn't say, because there is none, ROTFLMAO again.

Must of passed this over from the previous post, but just as an FYI, I / we use Throttle body cleaner, Sea Foam, just about any “Oxygen Sensor safe” cleaner can be used. Now let me tell you how we clean and test them. First when you pull the sensor there is a coating of carbon on the sensor. We use the cleaners to clean this coating off. Now if it is really caked on, then sure the chemicals will NOT work to clean this. If we do test, we use the bench method to test, and yes the flame MIGHT clean off more. Now I do NOT see many bad oxygen sensors, since we just pull them to install wide bands and tune, but fact is we still clean them off before we reinstall.

Now I know your going to say that, that “light” amount of carbon deposit will not affect the sensor. Maybe you’re right, but in my experience a “light” coating of carbon can cause a sensor to be off by a certain percentage. For example, in my field (building Chemical Plants) we use oxygen monitors, and various other sensors, analyzers, transmitters, etc. in flare stacks, and if these sensors get a coating of carbon deposit then they can be off, maybe its 1%, maybe its 10%. I know this does not sound like a lot, but depending on EPA regulations for the chemical / chemicals being burned off, or area the plant is in this could be a lot, and cost the company money. Now I know these oxygen sensors are not the highly accurate sensors used in plants, so carbon fouling will not affect them in the same fashion, but it makes me feel better to clean them off before re-install.

Quote:

Originally Posted by broken wire

why don't you get your crap straight before you post here, you have contridicted yourself so many times here it is not funny,

Please show me, you can even use quotes.

Well It seems I have to split this.