SRT vs. SVT vs. GM
#46
04-10-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
Ben99GT.
Yes, SVT will get their hands on the Mustang, slap a Supercharger on it, and you will brag about how much better it is than anything Mopar has to offer. Sounds simple, and at a low cost. In other words, a cheap alternative to a company that cannot afford to build a good performance engine. All the power to them. But just remember, you can slap a supercharger and a few mods on a Civic and get it to run good 1/4 mile times.
Yes, SVT will get their hands on the Mustang, slap a Supercharger on it, and you will brag about how much better it is than anything Mopar has to offer. Sounds simple, and at a low cost. In other words, a cheap alternative to a company that cannot afford to build a good performance engine. All the power to them. But just remember, you can slap a supercharger and a few mods on a Civic and get it to run good 1/4 mile times.
Ford can't build a good performance engine, OK. Then why is the 5.0L cammer doing so well in Grand Am? Why does NASCAR forbid Yates to run a cammer? Why did the '00 R lay down 370 rwhp bone stock? Gee, but they aren't a good performance engine. Bottom line, people can whine and complain all they want about a factory s/c engine, but at the end of the day the factory boosted motors are more durable from the factory and are MUCH easier to coax more power out of. Some people might like the fact they they have a "pure" N/A 6.1L under the hood, but is that really going to comfort them as they are being slaughtered by 03/04/07 Cobras?
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
Mopar on the other hand developes an entire new engine that will be SRT exclusive. (6.1l Hemi) Time consuming, and expensive to develope. And last but not least its an NA motor.
I would love to see Ford develope a powerhouse like the 6.1 for the
Mustang. That would be awsome to say the least. But its not gonna happen any time soon.
I would love to see Ford develope a powerhouse like the 6.1 for the
Mustang. That would be awsome to say the least. But its not gonna happen any time soon.
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
So, the "Mopar guys" will be just fine knowing that it takes a supercharged modded out Mustang to beat factory SRTs.
Best as always.
Best as always.
#47
04-10-2005, 05:10 PM
#48
04-10-2005, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by Ben99GT
It's not 150Ford that has his head in the sand.
Ok, let's look at this list of SRTs:
Chrysler:
Sports Car
Viper SRT 10 – High 11’s
- Obviously this is out of the Mustang's league. Still considerably slower than "the" GT (40). We're talking almost a 10 mph difference in 1/4 mile trap speed between the two. GTs have laid down over 560 rwhp bone stock, with SCT software , exhaust, and pulley upgrades available. Viper what?
Sport Compact
SRT - 4 Neon runs 13.8 and with a Stage upgrade low 13's
- Slower than a new Mustang GT. MM&FF ran a bone stock 5 speed Mustang GT to 13.3, Motor Trend got a 13.5. MT got 14s out of the SRT4.
Performance Truck
SRT - 10 RAM - Mid to high 13.8 range
- Similar to an '05 GT. Judging by how these SRT's run in the real world, they aren't impressive at all, not for the money.
Performance Sedan
SRT - 8 300C - 13.2
SRT - 8 Charger (since it will be about 3 hundred lbs lighter than the 300C I would assume it will be a high 12 second car.
- A couple tenths quicker than an '05 GT for $15,000 more. So much for the Mustang not being a "stylish non performance car".
Performance SUV
SRT – 8 Grand Cherokee All wheel drive.
Don’t know what the SRT – 8 will run but we know that the 5.7 hemi runs low 15’s so the SRT – 8 Grand Cherokee should be a low 14 second SUV.
- Not quick as the '05 Mustang GT.
Performance Roadster
Crossfire SRT-6 – 3.2L 330 HP SC V6 – 13.3’s
- Couple of tenths quicker than a '05 Mustang GT for more money.
Every car on the list, save the Viper, is slower than the nearly 3 year old '03 Cobra. The 300C SRT8 gets my respect, as does the Viper. The Grand Cherokee SRT 8 would be a nice grocery getter, but it's going to be upstaged badly by the Adrenaline. Just wait until the Shelby comes out, it's just a tune a pulley swap away from slaughtering $80,000 Vipers.
Ford is in a transition period right now, when SVT get's up and running Mopar will be back to playing catchup AGAIN, don't you worry Mopar fanatics.
Ok, let's look at this list of SRTs:
Chrysler:
Sports Car
Viper SRT 10 – High 11’s
- Obviously this is out of the Mustang's league. Still considerably slower than "the" GT (40). We're talking almost a 10 mph difference in 1/4 mile trap speed between the two. GTs have laid down over 560 rwhp bone stock, with SCT software , exhaust, and pulley upgrades available. Viper what?
Sport Compact
SRT - 4 Neon runs 13.8 and with a Stage upgrade low 13's
- Slower than a new Mustang GT. MM&FF ran a bone stock 5 speed Mustang GT to 13.3, Motor Trend got a 13.5. MT got 14s out of the SRT4.
Performance Truck
SRT - 10 RAM - Mid to high 13.8 range
- Similar to an '05 GT. Judging by how these SRT's run in the real world, they aren't impressive at all, not for the money.
Performance Sedan
SRT - 8 300C - 13.2
SRT - 8 Charger (since it will be about 3 hundred lbs lighter than the 300C I would assume it will be a high 12 second car.
- A couple tenths quicker than an '05 GT for $15,000 more. So much for the Mustang not being a "stylish non performance car".
Performance SUV
SRT – 8 Grand Cherokee All wheel drive.
Don’t know what the SRT – 8 will run but we know that the 5.7 hemi runs low 15’s so the SRT – 8 Grand Cherokee should be a low 14 second SUV.
- Not quick as the '05 Mustang GT.
Performance Roadster
Crossfire SRT-6 – 3.2L 330 HP SC V6 – 13.3’s
- Couple of tenths quicker than a '05 Mustang GT for more money.
Every car on the list, save the Viper, is slower than the nearly 3 year old '03 Cobra. The 300C SRT8 gets my respect, as does the Viper. The Grand Cherokee SRT 8 would be a nice grocery getter, but it's going to be upstaged badly by the Adrenaline. Just wait until the Shelby comes out, it's just a tune a pulley swap away from slaughtering $80,000 Vipers.
Ford is in a transition period right now, when SVT get's up and running Mopar will be back to playing catchup AGAIN, don't you worry Mopar fanatics.
Looks like the only SRT that the GT is quicker than in 1/4 mile is the Neon. So much for me being wrong. We won't bother comparing the Mustang to the GC SRT-8. You can bring up price, but that drum has been beaten too much.
Yes, the 6.1l Hemi is a variation of the 5.7l. But the Gen II Viper 8.0L V10 was a variation of the old 5.9 360s. Whats your point? Its still an N/A all american V8. And I would rather have that in my performance ride than a modded 5.4 that buddy down the street with an F-150 could have after hitting the aftermarket.
Your point about the GT-40 is ridiculous. One who spends 150k on an exotic car is not gonna tarnish its value with aftermarket software, exhaust, and pulley upgrades. They are going to leave the car as it is. The GT-40 is not a car to be tampered wit by any means. Plus the fact that you conveniently left out Viper upgrades. Hennessey has tweaked Vipers to 1,000 HP with the Venom upgrades.
Viper Upgrades
Venom 1000 Twin Turbo Upgrade
GT-40 What?
Chrysler takes pride in their performance cars, and the 6.1l Hemi proves this. Dodge could easily hit the aftermarket like Ford/SVT, and have the SRT-8 Charger come with a s/c 5.7 Hemi from the factory. The point behind my Civic/supercharger comment was that anyone can hit the aftermarket and end up with a super or turbo - charged Mustang. You can't buy an N/A 6.1L Hemi V8 aftremarket. Like I said before, you get what you pay for. If it was so expensive for Ford to s/c the Stang, then why does that not reflect in the price? I would like to see you explanation for that Ben99GT.
Last edited by Musclecar_Fan; 04-10-2005 at 05:22 PM.
#49
04-10-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by duramaximizer
his point was the mopar and chevy guys can add a supercharger and a tuner and smoke you. if you add a tuner and a supercharger (no wait that was done for you from the factory)
that was his point.
that was his point.
Viper VS GT-40
Factory HP:
GT-40 = 550.
Viper SRT-10 = 500
HP with untouched engine: (5.4l V8 VS 8.3l V10)
GT-40 - 300
Viper SRT-10 = 500
HP after adding a blower to the GT-40 AND Viper:
GT-40 = 550
Viper SRT-10 = 700-800 (roughly)
The GT-40 comes with a blower from the factory. If MOPAR did the same thing, its game over for the GT. My point here is, Ford has to use a blown modified engine just to get on the Viper's playing field.
Last edited by Musclecar_Fan; 04-10-2005 at 05:33 PM.
#50
04-10-2005, 05:32 PM
Posting Guru
Let's also not forget that Chrysler/Dodge whatever is not a N/A American V8, they're not an American company. Also, it's not cheap to upgrade to a s/c, the stock s/c engines have stronger internals from the factory to deal with the s/c, whereas if you went to the aftermarket, you're gonna have to upgrade rings, rods, pistons, and probably the crank to make the engine hold up as well as a s/c engine that comes designed to have a s/c, warranty and all...Aftermarket superchargers don't let you keep your factory warranty, either, let's not forget that...
Also, Musclecar, when you add a blower to the Viper, then you have no warranty, and then you have to buy a new Viper engine when you blow it trying to beat the GT, whereas stock, the GT already had a blower, so if something goes wrong because of it, you get it covered under warranty...Ford didn't have to add anything to try to keep up, they are ahead, and attacking the means they used to get ahead isn't going to make it any less of a fact that stock for stock, the Viper can't hang...If it was that easy, then why doesn't Dodge slap a blower on the Viper so they could be on top? Also, it's a GT, not a GT-40...
Also, Musclecar, when you add a blower to the Viper, then you have no warranty, and then you have to buy a new Viper engine when you blow it trying to beat the GT, whereas stock, the GT already had a blower, so if something goes wrong because of it, you get it covered under warranty...Ford didn't have to add anything to try to keep up, they are ahead, and attacking the means they used to get ahead isn't going to make it any less of a fact that stock for stock, the Viper can't hang...If it was that easy, then why doesn't Dodge slap a blower on the Viper so they could be on top? Also, it's a GT, not a GT-40...
Last edited by FordLariat; 04-10-2005 at 05:39 PM.
#51
04-10-2005, 05:41 PM
Lariat, where have you been for seven years now? Chrysler is an American company. Mercedes is German. The two companies merged back in 98 to form DaimlerChrysler. Chrysler is still American owned.
DCX at a Glance
So, unless you are willing to provide a link that Chrsler isn't Amertican, I am calling BS on your statement.
Best as always.
DCX at a Glance
So, unless you are willing to provide a link that Chrsler isn't Amertican, I am calling BS on your statement.
Best as always.
Last edited by Musclecar_Fan; 04-10-2005 at 05:44 PM.
#52
04-10-2005, 05:44 PM
warranties are a Joke! your telling me that you really think that ford upgrades all of that stuff to run a charger on it. muahahaha
i would love to see the specs on that. my bet is they don't do squat (since the c word was deemed unapropriate.)
btw after the warranty period is gone at 36k the other guys can just start to play while you are trying to find the next model year to make new hp.
i would love to see the specs on that. my bet is they don't do squat (since the c word was deemed unapropriate.)
btw after the warranty period is gone at 36k the other guys can just start to play while you are trying to find the next model year to make new hp.
#53
04-10-2005, 05:56 PM
The Vuper can't hang with the GTs? Lets see some links or numbers Lariat.
Heres one for you.
Take a good look at the chart where they compare 1/4 mile times, and 0-X times. So you buy a GT for 70 grand more to get a few tenths better than the 80k Viper. Then get beat in 1/4 mile. Then on top of that, they back the powertrain with a lame 3 yr/36,000 Mile powertrain warranty. Looks like the Viper is "hanging" with the GT Lariat. And in more than 1 area. Don't forget that the GT has 50 more HP according to Ford. (MT wrote it at 500, same as the Viper) The GT makes the Viper look like a bargan.
Best as always.
Heres one for you.
Take a good look at the chart where they compare 1/4 mile times, and 0-X times. So you buy a GT for 70 grand more to get a few tenths better than the 80k Viper. Then get beat in 1/4 mile. Then on top of that, they back the powertrain with a lame 3 yr/36,000 Mile powertrain warranty. Looks like the Viper is "hanging" with the GT Lariat. And in more than 1 area. Don't forget that the GT has 50 more HP according to Ford. (MT wrote it at 500, same as the Viper) The GT makes the Viper look like a bargan.
Best as always.
Last edited by Musclecar_Fan; 04-10-2005 at 05:58 PM.
#54
04-10-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Ben99GT
This is bad, incorrect information. What is your definition of expensive. Doing any engine work to a modular is expensive, but a 430 horsepower 5.4L is going to be a relatively mild, streetable, inexpensive (for a modular) combo.
You take a 5.4L, give it 10.5:1 or higher compression, cleaned up Navi heads and a set of cams you are going to make in excess of 500 horsepower at the flywheel if the engine builder has a clue. It's been done many times.
The '00 R 5.4L was making about 420 flywheel horsepower as it was, it had 9.6:1 CR, heads that needed port work, and a MILD set of cams. This engine wasn't strung out at all, so how are you going to tell us it is hard to exceed 430 horsepower?
You need to talk Al Papitto, he has an n/a 5.4L making well over 500 rwhp. Now were talking about a 600 horsepower n/a 5.4L...
You take a 5.4L, give it 10.5:1 or higher compression, cleaned up Navi heads and a set of cams you are going to make in excess of 500 horsepower at the flywheel if the engine builder has a clue. It's been done many times.
The '00 R 5.4L was making about 420 flywheel horsepower as it was, it had 9.6:1 CR, heads that needed port work, and a MILD set of cams. This engine wasn't strung out at all, so how are you going to tell us it is hard to exceed 430 horsepower?
You need to talk Al Papitto, he has an n/a 5.4L making well over 500 rwhp. Now were talking about a 600 horsepower n/a 5.4L...
As for the 420hp. I can only vouch for the DOHC 5.4 we see here.
It already has 10.5 compression ratio, runs on 96RON Premium unleaded.
Its cam set up is that agressive that parts of the head needed be machined out to get that much valve lift.
Its engine is balanced twice. Once it is assembled, and once it is in the car.
It makes 389hp...
BTW, where did you get 370 rwhp out of a stock Cobra R??? I wouldn't mind seeing the source, thats all.
The most highly regarded Australian Ford tuning shop, Herrod Motorsport, inform me it will cost about US$8000 to get it to the 430hp I quoted...
Yes the engine is capable of more than that, but the amount of money required to achieve this is getting rather obscene, and it would be next to impossible for SVT to engineer this inline with Fords durability requirements.
The supercharger for me was a substantially better and cheaper option.
Originally Posted by 2000BLK54
Those who think the supercharger is the cheap way out might want to research the SAE article on the GT's motor and see what it takes to "slap on a supercharger" It's not extremely cheap...it's extremely reliable and proven. What? You think Mercedes choose to put a twinscrew on their SL55 AMG because they wanted to cut costs on a $100K+ car? I think Dodge and GM have a lot to learn from SVT.
1. Heritage. Mercedes used to rule the roost in the 1930's with blowers.
2. Price. You may be surprised, but if you saw the development costs of the blown 5.5 engine compared to the V10 in the M5 you would be amazed.
3. "Grunt". Mercedes have always been about effortless power, this is hard to achieve this in N/A engines without dumping a big block in it.
#55
04-10-2005, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by duramaximizer
don't give me your EDITED BY ADMIN, because they are cheap performance if you ever looked at the price to bolt one up, ford can probably by them at cost or a little over, because of the volume. they are not extremely reliable, for if they were, you would see supercharged diesel rather than turbo diesels. the supercharger has a lot of performance advantages over a turbo because of it being driven from the motor, there is no lag etc. this is why they use the blower concept on dragsters. you really ought to think a little bit before you post.
#56
04-10-2005, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by BigF350
Mercedes did that for a few reasons.
1. Heritage. Mercedes used to rule the roost in the 1930's with blowers.
2. Price. You may be surprised, but if you saw the development costs of the blown 5.5 engine compared to the V10 in the M5 you would be amazed.
3. "Grunt". Mercedes have always been about effortless power, this is hard to achieve this in N/A engines without dumping a big block in it.
Right there...exactly the same way Ford went with a twinscrew Eaton on the GT and a roots on the Cobras. Grunt...and plenty of it all over the power band. And it cost them plenty to design and test these blown motors....expense they could have saved by using existing motors. How about that 600hp 4V V-10 Ford powertrain engineers shoehorned into a Mustang a while back? Could have just used that in the GT, so what does that say about the "Ford has to use a blown modified engine just to get on the Viper's playing field." arguement....doesn't hold much water now does it? Another thing for this aftermarket-supercharging-is-cheap-therefore-that's-why-Ford-uses-it junk. Any of ya'll actually purchase and tune a Ford Modular with an aftermarket blower personally? I have...my current truck is running a ProCharger that I've installed myself and can tell you there is far more than just the out-of-the-box costs involved to get power equal to what the SVT vehicles are doing from the factory. None of this is aimed towards BigF350...just using the points he brought up.
#57
04-10-2005, 06:54 PM
the word began with a C and not an S. just for the info i don't find that offensive to anyone. not my rules.
i am an engineering student so don't tell me a lot. they can adjust the pitch of the screws to make more or less boost without a huge pully on it. with the torque a diesel puts out, it would never feel that supercharger. also the turbos are running 500k miles and then if they do a rebuild on the motor, the same turbo will more than likely stay on the motor.
100k is fine for a gas motor because that is a lot of their useable life.
btw idk what you call wet, but their are lots of guys out there running a ton of other fuels being put throw the turbo. but this would be in a performance application. ex. the diesel pullers etc. they are running drugs such nitrous and propane among others "drugs"
on edit: you don't think i can stuff a supercharger (with maybe an airbox mod) on the relatively same truck as an SVT and come out with about the same power?
i am an engineering student so don't tell me a lot. they can adjust the pitch of the screws to make more or less boost without a huge pully on it. with the torque a diesel puts out, it would never feel that supercharger. also the turbos are running 500k miles and then if they do a rebuild on the motor, the same turbo will more than likely stay on the motor.
100k is fine for a gas motor because that is a lot of their useable life.
btw idk what you call wet, but their are lots of guys out there running a ton of other fuels being put throw the turbo. but this would be in a performance application. ex. the diesel pullers etc. they are running drugs such nitrous and propane among others "drugs"
on edit: you don't think i can stuff a supercharger (with maybe an airbox mod) on the relatively same truck as an SVT and come out with about the same power?
Last edited by duramaximizer; 04-10-2005 at 06:59 PM.
#58
04-10-2005, 07:08 PM
Posting Guru
Originally Posted by Musclecar_Fan
Lariat, where have you been for seven years now? Chrysler is an American company. Mercedes is German. The two companies merged back in 98 to form DaimlerChrysler. Chrysler is still American owned.
Also, you don't know what SVT has in store for us, we'll see in the next few years...Is the 6.1L Hemi out yet?
#59
04-10-2005, 07:22 PM
Whoopee...I'm an enginner major myself...*golf clap*
There are super coupe Thunderbirds out there with 200K on the clock on the original blower...I know one in particular with over 300K and is still a daily driver...little roots blower still going strong. Great...change the pitch of the screws on a Lysholm blower and tell me what that would do the adiabatic effiency of the unit...wouldn't be pretty...particularly since the lobes are perpendicular if the screw is bisected though the center of one lobe. Now on a cetrifugal blower that will have an affect but it depends entirely on impeller diameter and step-up ratio.
Wet flow...in a dragster in particular the motor runs on the verge of hydrostatic lock due to the volume of fuel being pumped in....gallons of it. NHRA limits the overdirve of the blowers to around 15,000 rpms or so. Think of what would happen when a relatively delicate aluminum turbo impeller spinning at 175,000 rpms is hit with nitro spraying at over a gallon per second? Can you say grenade? Don't think Propane and Nitrous are quite that dense. See those huge 4" wide cog belts on those Top Fuel blowers? Not there for show. They are transfering 500+ hp to that blower to digest all that air and fuel and the still have a scatter blanket in case one decides to blow.
I think you can throw a blower on any similar V8 to what on a Lightning and get the same power....after much time and $$$ tuning the combo. Guess what...all that extra time and tuning is wrapped up in the R&D costs SVT has in developing those "cheap" blown 4.6's and 5.4's....and it ain't nickels and dimes.
There are super coupe Thunderbirds out there with 200K on the clock on the original blower...I know one in particular with over 300K and is still a daily driver...little roots blower still going strong. Great...change the pitch of the screws on a Lysholm blower and tell me what that would do the adiabatic effiency of the unit...wouldn't be pretty...particularly since the lobes are perpendicular if the screw is bisected though the center of one lobe. Now on a cetrifugal blower that will have an affect but it depends entirely on impeller diameter and step-up ratio.
Wet flow...in a dragster in particular the motor runs on the verge of hydrostatic lock due to the volume of fuel being pumped in....gallons of it. NHRA limits the overdirve of the blowers to around 15,000 rpms or so. Think of what would happen when a relatively delicate aluminum turbo impeller spinning at 175,000 rpms is hit with nitro spraying at over a gallon per second? Can you say grenade? Don't think Propane and Nitrous are quite that dense. See those huge 4" wide cog belts on those Top Fuel blowers? Not there for show. They are transfering 500+ hp to that blower to digest all that air and fuel and the still have a scatter blanket in case one decides to blow.
I think you can throw a blower on any similar V8 to what on a Lightning and get the same power....after much time and $$$ tuning the combo. Guess what...all that extra time and tuning is wrapped up in the R&D costs SVT has in developing those "cheap" blown 4.6's and 5.4's....and it ain't nickels and dimes.
#60
04-10-2005, 07:36 PM
The 6.1s will be in showrooms anytime now. They said spring.
You are right. The GT is in an entire different class than the Viper. But the Viper can hang with it, so it doesn't matter what class its in when you talk performance. What does that have anything to do with the fact that its 70k more, and still cannot outperform the Viper by anything substancial. The new Vette has an edge on the Viper in performance. Do you think its more comforting for Dodge fans knowing that the Viper is in league above the Vette? No. The numbers are the numbers. I don't care if the GT is at a class above all others. All that matters is the Viper can and has hung with it. And for what Ford is charging for the GT is unacceptable. Not for the almost invisible edge that you get on the competition for 70k more. So what you are really doing is giving the Viper more credit for running with a car that it shouldn't be running with. I would be thouroughly embarassed if I were Ford.
As I understood it, Daimler was the parent company. But after further research it looks to me like the company is 50% American 50% German owned. The Senior Vice President of Chrysler is Trevor Creed. I can't seem to find the CEO's name anywhere. "Dieter" something. Can't remeber his last name. Not that it matters. Again, something irrelevent to the matter at hand.
You are right. The GT is in an entire different class than the Viper. But the Viper can hang with it, so it doesn't matter what class its in when you talk performance. What does that have anything to do with the fact that its 70k more, and still cannot outperform the Viper by anything substancial. The new Vette has an edge on the Viper in performance. Do you think its more comforting for Dodge fans knowing that the Viper is in league above the Vette? No. The numbers are the numbers. I don't care if the GT is at a class above all others. All that matters is the Viper can and has hung with it. And for what Ford is charging for the GT is unacceptable. Not for the almost invisible edge that you get on the competition for 70k more. So what you are really doing is giving the Viper more credit for running with a car that it shouldn't be running with. I would be thouroughly embarassed if I were Ford.
As I understood it, Daimler was the parent company. But after further research it looks to me like the company is 50% American 50% German owned. The Senior Vice President of Chrysler is Trevor Creed. I can't seem to find the CEO's name anywhere. "Dieter" something. Can't remeber his last name. Not that it matters. Again, something irrelevent to the matter at hand.