Ok folks, I'm not usually one to outright bash another make of cars, leave that to the streets when you pull your Lightning against a 454SS, no competition. But I have to vent some frustration here. Last week I bought a 1990 Pontiac Grand Prix. It seemed like a nice car, it was comfortable, and in really good condition for only $1200. I thought, hey, what a steal. Well, two nights ago, KERPUT. The car died on me. Alternator was shot. Not that that's a bad GM thing, I mean, the alternator was the original, almost 12 years old. In any case, I get my friends to come by and try to give me a jump. Well loosers don't have any cables!!! So I say "go go, don't stay up all night because of my problems" (it was almost 2am at this point). SO I call another friend of mine and she brings her cables. I'm thanking her so much for driving out to help me at 2am, she's the greatest. So I atempt to hook up the cables to my battery.......CRAP!!! Can anyone tell me how you are supposed to jump start a car where the terminal posts are mounted on the side of the battery, and stuffed down low right next to the air filter box with about an inch of clearance between the two? I'll tell you how. Take a crowbar to that air filter box and pry back, ALOT, till you can manage to slip a set of cables on the posts. And mind you, they have to be the mini cables, there is no way to fit the larger standard sized cables in that space. Anyhow, we let it sit while the battery is charging. Or so we thought. I try to start it up after 5, 10 minutes...nothing. What? Nothing. Ok, forget this, we get in her car and drive off, leaving this behind. Next day, dad offers a hand. We go to the car and hook up the terminals, nothing. What the? Yup, nothing. Ok, check the nuts on the terminals. Wow, they are REALLY loose. How do you tighten these? Very carefully and with patience...it's knuckle busting season down there if you don't watch out. Ok, they're tight, we jump the car, it gets running. Lesson learned? Apparently GM has so much confidence in their product, they burry the battery way in the corner, and make sure the terminals are not easy to get at. I manage to get it home on just the battery, and just as I pull up it dies. Definately alternator, not charging the battery. I go and buy one from the local Auto Parts store, just as they're closing. Time to put this bad larry on. I get home, pop the hood. Loosen the belt tensioner, slip the belt off the old alternator. Unhook the plug in lead. Grab a wrench and start unbolting...or so I thought. What's going on? The wrench won't fit...I try a few other sizes. Nothing. What?!?! "Don't even tell me" I yell out loud. Freaking METRIC BOLTS! What kind of American made car is going to use METRIC BOLTS on standard parts that should be easily accessable?? I have owned two Fords and never needed a metric wrench or anything, so I didn't have any. So I run to Autozone, pic up an 11mm socket, as the guy says it is. I get home. No fit, too big. Jeese Louis! I run back and say "you were wrong pal", he looks all dumbfounded, I decide to pick up a metric socket set. I'm sure it'll see alot of use. I get back home, once again. I slip the 10mm socket on and it fits. Thank You. I take the two bolts off and try to pull out the alternator. It's stuck. I pry a long screwdriver under it and manage to swing it up, and it swivels at a point. There is ANOTHER bolt. And guess what? It's wayyyyyy in the back, down at the verrrry bottom of the alternator. I can barely squish my hand in there. Finally get a 13mm socket on it and start a-crankin. After about 5 minutes of cranking on this one bolt (there is no clearance so you could rotate the socket wrench maybe a 16th of a turn, (like maybe 5 degrees oscilation) Finally loosen it, but the bolt is so long it pushed the socket way back against something and I had to beat it and yell at it and kick it till it came off.Then the bolt came off. It's now dark out, I'm working by flashlight. I get the new alternator, set it in place. I connect the ground, then the wiring harness. Then loosely bolt in the two top bolts. I slip the belt on and make sure the alternator is pushed all the way down in the back, like it would be if I put that last stupid bolt back in. I tighten the two top bolts till I really can't anymore to mkae sure it won't move around. I said forget that last bolt, it's entirely too much of a pain and hassle. luckily the belt moves counter clockwise on this side mounted engine, and as it does, it basically pulls down on the alternator, keeping it in place if the other two bolts do loosen at all. Kids, the lesson of this story is....wait, I don't even know what it is. What the heck kind of lesson is GM trying to teach me? Is it "We'd rather you take your car to a mechanic to do a simple job such as replacing an alternator than have you do it yourself"? Maybe it's "We have so much confidence in our engines and accessories that we make it nearly impossible to even JUMP START your car, let alone replace a part"? It could also be "As theft precaution to engine components, we have opted to use metric size bolts on our American cars, knowing that many theives don't carry metric sets on them." Well hey guys at GM, hate to tell you this, but most people don't have, let alone expect to see, metric units used on American cars. In the end, I spent nearly 3 hours on a job that normally (on my F-250) would have taken TOPS 15 minutes. Next project is to replace the transmission pan seal cause I have a leak somewhere and I want to start off small and eliminate any possibilities I can. But I know this will end up being a project.....
Sorry for the book, I am just really angered and frustrated by this stupid GM car.

Ryan
1986 F-250 HD 4x4
4.10 gears, C6 trany
351W, Edelbrock 351 Performer intake
Edelbrock Performer 600cfm 4bbl carb
Edelbrock Pro-Flo air cleaner
Extreme 4x4 camshaft
Flowmaster 30 series dual exhaust
Custom headers
3" Warn body lift

 

GM ain't the only one with metric bolts. Ford uses both SAE and metric on the same vehicle!

I know I'm going to get some bashing for this, but I think ALL the nuts and bolts on new Fords should be metric. Why? Because SAE sizes keeps USA products out of other countries.

Heck, one time Mr. Coffee had 10s of thousands of coffee-makers refused by another country's customs authority because the power cords were 6 feet long, just shy of the metric minimum length required. In India, one of the world's largest populations, the average auto owner can't afford two sets of tools. Do you think they're going to buy SAE tools for a Ford, GM, or Dodge or a metric tools that fits everything else made in the world? China and India are ripe for the picking when it comes to exports.... and they use metric.

The SAE-only mentality has cost us a lot more than people think and its one of the biggest reasons the US government made the push years ago to switch over. People considered metric un-American when in fact it damages America to continue using an isolated standard. The more we export, the better! GM and Ford recognize this and are slowly transitioning their vehicles over to metric. I wouldn't be surprised if in another decade all the nuts and bolts on a Ford/GM are metric.

Ken Payne
[img src="/dcforum/User_files/webmaster/usaflag.gif" valign=top align=left] Ford Truck Enthusiasts Admin

 

hey buddy i know your feelings i bought an 86 volkwagon jetta for $200 a good winter beater so i can store my thunderbird well that thing has metric ans SAE mixed on the same friggen part!! i dont know if it is factory that way(probably not) but imagine my surprise when i went to change the altinator and one bolt is standard and the other is metric!! needless to say the old VW has a couple of size 13 boot marks in the fender now!! hehehe

 

Ken, what is the same vehicle as the Grand Prix? I wasn't saying Ford doesn't use any metric, but on all the Ford's I've worked on, being friends trucks, or my 99 F-150, or my 86 F-250, all the bolts that typically need removal during a part swap tend to be SAE, such as the alternators, starters, fuel pumps, etc. I completely understand that some of these bolts will be metric, but it just struck me as odd that a supposedly American made car (actually probably made in Mexico) was using metric hardware on parts that will typically need replacement after many years. It was more frustration that anything, because after working on my F-250 for almost 6 months straight, be it adding parts such as the starter that went bad, or the new solenoid, or the carb, or whatever, they were all SAE, and all my tools are SAE, I have very few metric tools, and I suppose I had just gotten used to that.

And I may be completely off on this, but in countries such as India where many people can't even afford the tools to work on a car, do you honestly think they would own the expensive American made Vehicles, rather than the local small sub-compact mini cars which we rarely see here? We as Americans are known for having big cars and trucks that drink lots of gas, other countries typically don't have this. I mean, look at the UK, where they drive around in Yugo's and whatnot, small beamers, etc. American vehicles, the big three, are not import cars typically, and I don't see that changing much. I may be completely off on this.

I can see newer cars using metric, but in the case of an older (1990) car, before the push to metric was made, and considering many of the other auto makers were using SAE over metric, it just really stuck me hard. Let's admit it, you're probably never going to see an F-250 in India with a 351W, and you probably will never see a new F-series truck in India, they are just too expensive. Unless Ford or Chevy or Dodge can create a fullsize truck at the same cost as these foreign little cars seen all over India and China, you will probably never see them there. Perhaps you will see small cars, Ford Escorts, Focus's, Dodge Neons, but again, these vehicles are still typically above the price range of many citizens of India and China.

It's not so much that I have an SAE only mentality, it's the fact that the vehicle uses both SAE and metric, so in that sense, I guess us Americans must own two sets of tools. Many of our older vehicles use all SAE, and so therefor many people own SAE only tools, be it purchased by themselves, or like in my case, passed on from my dad which he used on his cars. So now we Americans all have to go out and buy metric tools to add to our collections and we have to sink the money. I think it would be best if the big three used metric on their exports, and kept American made and sold in the US SAE units. It would save alot of money for us, too. But I realize the big three can't really do this, they would need new plants, even more separate divisions, rather than a mass production line for both American and exports.

My big beef wasn't so much the metric bolts, though it was frustrating. My beef was with the placement of the bolts, battery, etc. It is seriously the worse designed location for an engine I've ever seen. Of all the cars I've owned, this is my first GM, and already, doing something as simple as replacing an alternator turned into being a major project. Like I said, you basically need a prybar to get to the battery terminals just to jump the dang thing.

Ryan
1986 F-250 HD 4x4
4.10 gears, C6 trany
351W, Edelbrock 351 Performer intake
Edelbrock Performer 600cfm 4bbl carb
Edelbrock Pro-Flo air cleaner
Extreme 4x4 camshaft
Flowmaster 30 series dual exhaust
Custom headers
3" Warn body lift

 

I wasn't disagreeing with you..... it was just a side thought I had. I agree with you 100%. I say: pick a standard and stick with it. Either SAE or Metric (preferrably metric), that way no one is surprised when they open the hood.

I've worked with several sub-continent programmers (India, Pakastan, Bangledesh, etc) and they all tell me people there won't touch an American car, even the small ones that are perfect for their country (Contour, Escort, Focus), with a ten foot pole.

A common complaint they've told me is "when they break, you can't fix them." People out there keep their cars a LOT longer than we do. World-wide, people hate American cars and until Ford made the Contour (called the Mondeo elsewhere) and the Focus, Ford never truly had an International car, though the Escort came close. So long as we choose to ignore the rest of the world, we'll be locked out of their markets.

I'm not saying shrink trucks down in size for a world-wide markter... heck no! I LOVE full size trucks. I'm saying start producing more cars like the extremely popular Focus that can be built anywhere in the world and appeals to a world-wide youth audience. Build luxury cars that are no longer reminders of 60s boats but are luxury performers. Offer more options with the small trucks (Ranger) and make it completely metric. Bring back a 4x4 Bronco II, an extremely useful vehicle in some countries.....

Capture the youth's heart for the Ford name-plate. Chances are good they become a customer for life. The original Mustang was such a car and its turning out that the Focus is too (and corners unbelievable well!).

Time to get off the soapbox, I've got work to do!

Ken Payne
[img src="/dcforum/User_files/webmaster/usaflag.gif" valign=top align=left] Ford Truck Enthusiasts Admin

 

I think the essence of ryanstruck's experience is the lack of forethought by GM when they design the vehicle. I've noticed the same frustrations with GM products. Ford always seems to have a clever design and an eye toward future repair necessities. Yes, I to notice more SAE and metric mixes on Ford products and special bolt heads requiring both 12pt and 6pt metric sockets for removal. Just when you think you have enough tools.....!

 

I have a couple of sets of MetWrench wrenches and sockets, they are available on the internet somewhere, and fit both Amreican and Metric with the same socket. (they grab on the sides not the corners) I got them to avoid the metric / SAE problem.

Wm
http://wsphotofews.excite.com/032/Mp/Wb/5M/EN89478.jpg
'96 F450 Custom Crewcab 4x4 Flatbed, Powerstroke, Banks Powerpack, Chip, Tranny control,Aux tranny, engine worked giving 340 hp and 660lb ft torque

 

The company I work for is a supplier to Ford (along with several other OEMs), and in my experience Ford's internal work is ALL done using the metric system. The blueprints are metric, the specs are metric, and so on. Really, it's a bit odd that they use any SAE bolts at all anymore - because they have really switched over to the metric system at this point. The components my company makes aren't really customer-servicable, but they do almost exclusively use metric bolts & nuts.

It's been a while since I've seen a design that called out an SAE thread size, and that's including Ford, Chevy, and D-C...in addition to Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or VW/Audi/Bentley. The vehicles by the "Big 3" are going to become 100% metric, but it is a slow process - we still have some suppliers that claim they "can't understand the metric system".

I can't wait until they finally switch over, but that's easy for me to say because I have full tool sets in both SAE and metric.

LK

 

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 17-Oct-01 AT 12:56 PM (EST)[/font][p]Well this summer I finally found a metric bolt on my '78 F250.
Guess where it was? On the rear bumper mount bolt that has the nut pressed into the frame. It turned out to be a pain as I had to get longer metric bolts to go in there and couldn't use the SAE Grade 8's I had handy!

So the lesson here, Ford was using metric stuff even back then!

Where have you americans been? Here in canada we've had to have metric wrenches for 15 years! John Deere farm equipment (made or at least assembled in the US) has used metric for maybe a decade?

https://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/User_files/3ae0a7e34062b4ad.jpg https://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/User_files/weldman/3b8be147257a8888.jpg

1978 F250 4x4 - 351M
Don't crush them, restore them!

 

See, well that's just the thing, we'll have to go out and spend hundreds on new metric tool kits and sets and blah blah blah, our standard sets will be virtually useless, so there's a big loss. Almost all the parts on my 86 are SAE. I'm sure if you really look you can find metric used, but not on important parts like engine components. That is all SAE. This wasn't even my problem with metric though, it was with GM's engine configuration. It is horrible, a nightmare to work on. It's just that the whole while I'm standing there in the dark, trying to find the right SAE socket, when all along it was a 10mm for the top 2 and a 13 for the bottom. That just got me pretty upset, because here I was busting my knuckles trying to reach at the bottom bolt, trying to get to the battery terminals, and then bam, not SAE like every other car I've owned.

Ryan
1986 F-250 HD 4x4
4.10 gears, C6 trany
351W, Edelbrock 351 Performer intake
Edelbrock Performer 600cfm 4bbl carb
Edelbrock Pro-Flo air cleaner
Extreme 4x4 camshaft
Flowmaster 30 series dual exhaust
Custom headers
3" Warn body lift

 

I think that whether or not engine bolts are SAE or metric might depend on which engine it is. The engine in my '87 Thunderbird (3.8L V6) used metric bolts going into the head - which was a big problem, because the previous owner tried to thread SAE bolts into the holes & stripped them out. Also, I'm pretty sure that the accessories bolted into the 302 V8 in my '89 Lincoln also use metric bolts - I seem to remember using my metric set when I tensioned the belts.

A few of the metric sizes have close SAE equivalents, so it's possible to have metric bolts and not even notice it if they happen to be the right sizes. But, nowadays the automakers (Ford included) are using more of the oddball metric sizes that none of the SAE sizes will come close to working on. Also, sometimes they use sizes that *nothing* seems to fit - maybe their wrench sizes come in increments of 1/64th of an inch or 1/2 millimeters.

LK

 

I find this quite odd that you bought a small car and expected a roomy engine compartment. Dodge is bad about no spare room, my F-350 has very little spare room. To change the second battery I have to take un-bolt my air intake(which doesn't take long at all). About SAE vs. Metric, I think SAE should be abandoned. US is the only country that still uses SAE and Metirc has an obvious advantage(multiples of 10) over SAE. However we need to be stuborn and stay American so long live SAE... I imagine whatever part you spoke of being in the way should have could probbably have ben very easy to unbolt.

Have you seen a PT cruiser? There is no engine room at all. In fact my dad used to own a car that you had to reach through the fender to change the spark-plugs on. I have heard of far worse examples than what you speak of. I think that if you look around, you will eventually consider that Grand Prix to be as roomy as Bill Gates' mansion.

Logan

 

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 17-Oct-01 AT 04:42 PM (EST)[/font][p]I don't think you followed me at all. I didn't expect to buy a car and have the same room I had with my 86 F-250. I expected to have minimal room to do stuff. But as I said there is absolutely no room to work or fix anything. You can hardly jump a battery cause the terminals are wedged between the air intake with only about an inch max of free space. And this isn't a backup secondary battery, this is THE battery, you know the only battery? Call me crazy, dissagree with me, whatever, but shouldn't something as important as battery terminals be easily accesible? So I should have to remove my entire air intake everytime I need a battery jump or someone else needs me to jump their battery?! Or should I just have it towed and let a mechanic do it? Heck no, I can jump a battery, but when it's innaccessible as this one was, you just can't do it easily as it should be. And no, the third bolt, the lower one which was about 4 inches long, had no other way to get to it that to wedge the socket in there using a flex point, and turn the socket about 16th of a full turn nearly three hundred times! Sure, there was one other way to get to it: unbolt and remove the entire fuel injection system. There's no way to reach the back of it, the alternator almost rests against the firewall. I've owned other cars. I had a Ford Escort, and that was 100 times easier to work on. My friend Mike has a 1999 Ranger xlt with the 4.0. That is a stuffed compartment, not much room at all, but you can still jump a battery, you can still change an alternator or fuel pump as we have with minimal effort. I don't think this engine compartment will ever seem "as big as Bill Gates mansion" if I can't even get jumper cables to the terminals Logan. And as for SAE, I suppose that means we will have to abandon our method of measuring oil weight, as in SAE 30. Read my earlier posts please, and you will see I am not against the use of metric, I was just angered because I didn't expect to see metric and standard SAE used together, especially on an older 1990 car. And I think it would be much better to use metric on exported vehicles, and keep domestic SAE. I'm sorry, but after what? 100+ years since the beginning of automotive technology and 50 or so years of the use of SAE tools and hardware, and these tools being pased down through the generations, we are just supposed to give them up, go out, spend hundreds more on metric tools so we can be "just like everyone else"? So we can try to sell $30,000 trucks or even $15,000 small compact cars to third world countries that can't afford the clothes on their backs? That makes no sense at all. Sorry, but I'm just not ready to pack up my Craftsman tools I've inherited and spent hundreds on.

Ryan
1986 F-250 HD 4x4
4.10 gears, C6 trany
351W, Edelbrock 351 Performer intake
Edelbrock Performer 600cfm 4bbl carb
Edelbrock Pro-Flo air cleaner
Extreme 4x4 camshaft
Flowmaster 30 series dual exhaust
Custom headers
3" Warn body lift

 

All I can say is you got what you paid for. Never owned a GM vehicle and never been in s GM dealership and plan to keep it that way.

Bob
'66 7 Litre, top loader, 3.25 Traction-lock, Sidewinder Intake, SCJ Exhaust
'88 F150 LWB 4x2, XLT Lariat, 302, 5 speed, 3.08
'99 Ranger, 4x2, 3.0, 5 speed, 3.73 posi

 

*Sniffez @ the Grand Prix's tires, and lifts leg*

Older "Big Prizes" had all the room in the world under the hood, unfortunately this is the modern age...

The Grand Am is an even bigger bollux (AKA: Clustermare, ***** up, study in masochism, etc...)

POINT: The very FIRST place I look is under the hood. On my vehicles, that area is SACRED - no one else is EVER supposed to be there unless invited! And since I intend to play with it myself, I want it to be a fun 'toy'....

You follow me so far?

In 1976, the first Monza's were found to have clearances so tight, you had to PULL THE MOTOR to change sparkplugs.

The first Datsun Sportscars (looked almost like an Austin Healey or a Triumph) were so tight they SQUEAKED when you tried to pull the starter out. I still have the scars on my hands and forearms...

My '82 F-100 had 18 millimeter nuts on the front body bushings, and I had to get a special deepwell socket for the things.
The rest were 11/16ths, 5/8th's, and 9/16th's if I remember right.

*shrugs*

It's the price I pay to play. My philosophy is: The more tools I have, the better off I am, because the more stuff I can do.
It's a part of the journey to becoming a master in the craft, and of course there are dues to be forked over along the way. Franklin meant it when he said: (Words to the effect of) "We tend to value/esteem less that which costs us the least"

- Perhaps that's why freedom means so much more to a veteran than it does to, say, an individual who never served at all...

Before long, I'll need another full size toolbox (top AND bottom). And then I'll continue to fill them up. The other point I go by is: "It's better to have it and not need it, than it is to need it and not have it."

~This of course freaks out my wife, but her clothing collection is the other side of THAT coin.

Yes, Ryan - you have a project car. I take it that thing was made well after 1972, which was my original cut-off date for cars. I was absolutely NOT going to buy any damn set of wheels made after then. But then I found out the Geo Metro's had all kinds of leftover space in them, and the early ones with a 3 cylinder could be modified to accept the 4 cylinder...

Best Go-Kart I've ever owned, man! I get to drive it on the street...

~ Wolf