Boxed Frame Rail Question
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Senior User
Joined: Apr 2002
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From: Austin, TX
Boxed Frame Rail Question
I am planning on getting alot done over the holidays assuming the weather cooperates and my son ever comes home from college. I plan on doing my bedwood and putting on the inner fenders, which leads me to my question.
The upright bracket on the inner fenders bolts directly to the frame. However because the frame is now boxed, the bolt obviously will not go completely thru (my bad--didn't think ahead). The inside of the new boxed frame rail now has fuel lines and battery cables on them.
My question is this. Could I just thread the existing hole and use a short bolt or should I drill thru the new inner frame rail and use a smooth headed thru bolt. This will require removing the gas lines, battery cables etc. I think the original frame is fairly heavy gauge material and could hold enough threads to properly support the inner fenders and their share of weight. The thru bolt would obviously be much stronger. I just hate taking things apart once I have put them together!
I am leaning to taking everything apart and using a thru bolt. Just wanted some different opinions to see if I may be overkilling this problem.
Tim
1948 F1
The upright bracket on the inner fenders bolts directly to the frame. However because the frame is now boxed, the bolt obviously will not go completely thru (my bad--didn't think ahead). The inside of the new boxed frame rail now has fuel lines and battery cables on them.
My question is this. Could I just thread the existing hole and use a short bolt or should I drill thru the new inner frame rail and use a smooth headed thru bolt. This will require removing the gas lines, battery cables etc. I think the original frame is fairly heavy gauge material and could hold enough threads to properly support the inner fenders and their share of weight. The thru bolt would obviously be much stronger. I just hate taking things apart once I have put them together!
I am leaning to taking everything apart and using a thru bolt. Just wanted some different opinions to see if I may be overkilling this problem.
Tim
1948 F1
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 218
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From: Highwood, Montana
Tim, I'm sure glad you posted this question, as I am just about ready to box the frame on my '51, and hadn't thought of the inner fender bolt! I would also lean towards using a long bolt through the boxed frame, it would sure last longer.
Question: are you keeping the flathead? I need to modify my original motor mount cross members to accomodate the IFS, and then I need to fugure out how to mount a pwr steering pump to a flattie. I'll probably have to go monster garage on the old girl.....
Thanks,
Gary
Question: are you keeping the flathead? I need to modify my original motor mount cross members to accomodate the IFS, and then I need to fugure out how to mount a pwr steering pump to a flattie. I'll probably have to go monster garage on the old girl.....
Thanks,
Gary
old and in the way
Joined: Jul 1997
Posts: 5,924
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From: Lovely Hueytown Alabama
Tim,
there is another option.... they're called Rivet nuts, nutserts, well nuts.
they install similar to pop rivets... it's basically a little aluminum tube with a nut in the bottom and the other end flanged... you drill an oversized hole... drop in the rivet nut (nut end first) and using the insertion tool which looks like a pop rivet gun you thread the nut and pull up... that compresses the aluminum tube and it cinches in the hold... instant threads... They aren't for high load applications but for inner fender bolts should do fine..
I've also seen them in rubber and the tightening of the bolt pulls the rubber up and holds tight... Check the Grainger or at this link for a pic
nutsert
I'm sure you can buy individuals or just a few at home depot or lowes or other hardware dealers... probably get around the insert tool using a piece of plate drilled oversize a pulling nut and bolt and a clamp ...
beats taking things apart... ya'll know how I hate to do things over
later
john
there is another option.... they're called Rivet nuts, nutserts, well nuts.
they install similar to pop rivets... it's basically a little aluminum tube with a nut in the bottom and the other end flanged... you drill an oversized hole... drop in the rivet nut (nut end first) and using the insertion tool which looks like a pop rivet gun you thread the nut and pull up... that compresses the aluminum tube and it cinches in the hold... instant threads... They aren't for high load applications but for inner fender bolts should do fine..
I've also seen them in rubber and the tightening of the bolt pulls the rubber up and holds tight... Check the Grainger or at this link for a pic
nutsert
I'm sure you can buy individuals or just a few at home depot or lowes or other hardware dealers... probably get around the insert tool using a piece of plate drilled oversize a pulling nut and bolt and a clamp ...
beats taking things apart... ya'll know how I hate to do things over
later
john
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 15,882
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From: Durham NC
A thru bolt should work in a non structural application, if the bolt is structural and/or needs a high torque tightening then a tube that is just slightly longer than the frame width should be welded in first for the bolt to pass thru and tighten against. You can also use threaded blind nuts that install from the outside like a giant pop rivet for bolting to any metal not thick enough to thread.
For the flathead brackets, Motor City Flatheads are the experts on anything flathead.
For the flathead brackets, Motor City Flatheads are the experts on anything flathead.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,489
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From: Valley Center, CA
The slick way to do it would have been to weld in a captured nut before you welded the panel to the frame. 
But since the panel is already in, I would say the second best method would be the insert nut John pointed out. This is a timely post for several builders I am sure. Good luck, John
But since the panel is already in, I would say the second best method would be the insert nut John pointed out. This is a timely post for several builders I am sure. Good luck, John
Senior User
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 241
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Where??
Help me out here guys - I'm confused!!
I've got a '51 and a '50 F1 and I don't recall any locations where the inner fender bolts to the frame. Mine bolt to the front radiator support etc and to the cab but not to the frame.........
I've got a '51 and a '50 F1 and I don't recall any locations where the inner fender bolts to the frame. Mine bolt to the front radiator support etc and to the cab but not to the frame.........
Postmaster
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,190
Likes: 2
From: Riverside, So Cal
Regarding the rivet nuts - they also come in steel. They use the same inserting tool (like a pop rivet squeezer). A 1/4-20 steel rivet nut will hold 400-500 pounds of tension and 1000's of pounds in shear. It seems to me that a few of those would be very sufficient for a fender hold-down. I noticed that "Pros-Pick" uses these inserts in tension for the gate restraint strap. That has to take shock and considerable load.
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Senior User
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From: Austin, TX
The rivet nuts are just what the Dr. ordered! The steel ones sound perfect. Sure would beat taking things apart. Thanks guys!!!!
Blatherskite
On my 48, the inner fenders attach to the cab and then go over the three bolts holding on the fender support bracket. There is also a square support that comes down in the middle and attaches to the frame to add strength and ridigity to the middle of the inner fender. The bolt for the center support is the problem area for me. I can't speak to a '51 but would imagine the '50 is identical to mine.
Tim
Blatherskite
On my 48, the inner fenders attach to the cab and then go over the three bolts holding on the fender support bracket. There is also a square support that comes down in the middle and attaches to the frame to add strength and ridigity to the middle of the inner fender. The bolt for the center support is the problem area for me. I can't speak to a '51 but would imagine the '50 is identical to mine.
Tim
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Joe Kucinski
Logistics Pro
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,489
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From: Valley Center, CA
Blatherskite brings up a good point. The inner fender wells on my 54 did not affix to the frame. They are fastened on three sides. Fire wall, Rad support and the fender. This allows the front doghouse to flex as necessary without being hampered by the frame. Good call! John
John
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 335
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From: IN.
On the nuyserts you don't need a tool for them ( don't but a tool ) if you have a inpack tool you can use that ,or a bolt and nut .with the inpack tool just get a pipe ,,flatting the end ,dill a hold about the size of the bolt ,run the bolt through the pipe end with a washer ,on top of the nutserts, hold the pipe and turn the inpack on the bolt, it will compress the nutserts ,just go easy .it the best cheap tool for the job... or a bolt and nut with a washer will do the samething....and 2 wrenchs ...
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 587
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From: Augusta, ME
My 51 has the inner fenders bolted to the frame, a bracket is welded to the bottom of the panel (slightly forward of the rear edge of the panel) that extends down, and attaches to a stud that is mounted to the frame. I have had to reweld the hole on the bracket on one side, and totally replace the other side, as the one was cracked and the other completely broken off. I wonder if they have been removed off of Blatherskite's rig by a previous owner because of this problem. The flexing John mentioned probably causes the cracking/breaking I have. I fixed the brackets and drilled the holes bigger to allow for some movement, hopefully to stop it from happening again.
Scott
Scott
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From: Valley Center, CA
Scott, after thinking about it, I should say that I am not sure on the F-1 cab of the flex potential. But I know that on the F-100 the cab is designed to flex and move on the frame. It has thick rubber donuts up front and big rubber bumpers on the rear that let it move slightly from side to side. It would seem to me that the inner fenders being bolted directly to the frame would be a problem resulting in some type of stud/bolt breaking. Just a thought, John
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