Heres a thought for you guys looking for a manifold for EFI. What about the Weiand Stealth? I know it sucks for carbs due to fuel distribution problems, but with efi that shouldn't be a problem. Plus, the ports all line up. Take a look:

 

Rusty, Thats a really good idea. I'll have to convert one and try it. Thanks.
Dustin

 

That is part number 7282 - hard to find but jeg's has them listed ($459.99), which seems a bit rich for what we need. The same series for a 385 motor is $189.99.

I will watch eBay for one. Dustin, let me know if we bump heads on one - no reason for us to bid against each other.

Thanks Rusty - it sure looks like that one would be ideal.

Clint

 

Yeah, that does seem a little much for an intake. I mean, you can get a Edelbrock Victor for $520.

Well, how about this, from DSC:

Edit: The picture was too big. Go to www.dscmotorsport.com and look at it.

The above is the "390-428 Weiald Dual Plane" and costs $200.

 

If you guys haven't looked into it, I really think the ACCEL Generation 7 set up is a great choce for controlling all this. Accel offers a plug and play distributor with cam and crank signal for about 350, and the processor willl handle bank, sequential, or throttle body injection strategies. Sorry if I sound like an ad for Accel, its just that I purchased this system because it offers this very flexibility. I'm starting with TBI and the wide band O2 sensor (which should help greatly with tuning). If it looks like port injection is the way to go all I have to do is change the manifold, add injectors and rails, Block the injector ports on the throttle body (so I can keep the TPS and IAC already located there), change the injector portion of the harness (the main harness comes with the ability to control multiport injection already), and reprogram the ECU.

Out of curiosity, If you arent looking at Accel's system or one like it, what ARE you looking at to control all this technology?

 

Intresting reading guys, have you looked at www.force-efi.com? They mill your intake and weld in injector bungs, also they have complete systems ready to run. Price, "GULP" $3,200 + range. Carl....=o&o>........

 

There are a TON of options for EFI control. It all depends on how deep your pockets are OR how handy you are. The cheepest route is to modify stock gm, ford or most any ECU and harness. A little more money is my favorite, the megasquirt option, past that you've got accel, haltech, motech, electromotive tec3, etc. The accel stuff sounds neat with the wideband setup, but it's out of my price range and won't do what I want. To be honest, I think anybody who pays big bucks for aftermarket engine controls right now is throwing their money away. The technology is changing so rapidly and people and companies are sprouting up offering the same or better technology at 1/10th the cost. An assembled megasquirt is in the $300 range on ebay. Megasquirt may be batch right now, but most people don't realize that sequential really is batch above a few thousand RPM's. Many people pass over megasquirt because they feel batch will not allow their engine to reach it's full potential even though the engine they are building has a powerband well past the point where sequential becomes batch. Megasquirt runs mpfi and tbi and it will work with any factory distributor, has very cheap and easy options for distributorless ignition, works with the DIY wideband stuff and is super easy to work with. The coolest part is it's dirt cheap and upgradeable. Every time a new technology comes out somebody figures out how to incorporate it into the megasquirt and make it work for peanuts. The new Ultramegasquirt is supposed to be released soon and incorporates wideband controller, edis controller, sequential, iac and cost less than $200. The aftermarket EFI companies argue that megasquirt doesn't offer tech support like they do, but if you have a problem with megasquirt and can't get it answered on the internet you're doing something wrong.
Dustin

 

Yea, it is very interesting. I have looked at a lot of data so far. What I am thinking now is that EFI does not offer a whole lot to the performance end - at wide open throttle a carb can hold its own against efi. Where the benefits come in is in part throttle operation, but only if you can control air to fuel mixture and timing.

I intend to use the MegaSquirt controller - but not the one they are selling now. They have a MegaSquirt II ready for release that is computer enough to do most of what I want, and a UltraMegaSquirt in development that is even more computer. What makes this system ideal is that they give you the source code and allow you to modify it as you wish - this means you can add a Exhaust Gas Temperature input if you wish - or anything else you can think of.

These controllers come in kits that you assemble yourself and are cheap - less than $250 for the electronics. If you know anything about computers, the current offering is like the old 8086 systems, the generation they are about to release like the 486 computer, and the one under development like a Pentium 4 system.

I am not that good at programming, but there is a huge user group willing to work with you - and send you code they have written.

I want this because all the current systems are built around the magic 14.7 A/F mix, which is a compromise required by our Government. I want to lean this out for economy, and make it much richer for power. You need to have timing under computer control because the different fuel mixtures burn at different rates.

Where I am stuck now is in the mechanical part of the system - when the 460 went to EFI Ford developed new heads. I have not been able to find what they changed in the head to make it better for EFI.

In fact, while I have always run FEs, I am considering converting to a fuel injected 460. I just do not know how good the 460 is compared to a 390 FE. I want an engine that will tow big loads over steep grades in the summer heat.

 

With existing aftermarket systems you are buying many things including user friendly fuel table manipulation tools (the air fuel mixture will be whatever you want, wherever you want in the engine's performance range) and more simplified tuning.

For instance- basic startup consists of entering info in a series of fill in the blanks on a windows application (like compression ratio, cam specs, head chamber size etc) and then turning the key. Its hard to beat the time savings let alone the stress savings that come from having a system that has already worked a lot of those issues out.

Additionally, you get premade harnesses and instructions. When I go forward with this conversion I'm expecting a total of two days of down time with assembly of the injection and engine management system (including an engine replacement) and after that all I have to do is fine tune.
Now- let me state that my money is where my mouth is, and yes, it is plenty of money (probably $4000 in fuel and ignition management alone). My Accel GEN 7 fuel injection set up is sitting on my work bench and the new engine is assembled and on the stand. I expect to start the project as soon as I find two free days in a row.

You make an excellent point in regards to continually updating technology making currently available systems obsolete, however similar logic could be used as a reason to not upgrade from an 8088 because whatever you buy will be obsolete by the time you've finished paying for it.

As far as MegaSquirt - While I agree on the point of price, I have to ask the question- if you are going with bank injection and a simple fuel only control, why go through all the trouble of perfectly locating injectors? Can the benifit you get really be realized without an full engine management platform (I'm genuinely asking, not being a jerk)?

A final comment on the side of the scales for existing aftermarket systems- while I do have plenty of "big bucks for aftermarket engine controls" invested in this system, what I have purchased is a full engine management system with no additional parts needed. This money paid for the IAC, MAP, wideband O2 sensor with self tuning capabilities, a distributor able to deliver cam AND crank signals, a fully developed and pre made harness, injectors, ecu, fuel pump, relays, capacitive discharge ignition and high performance coil, and an 800 number to call if it doesn't fire and run the first time I try.

I'm seriously not trying to be contrary. I'm really enjoying the fact that I have an opportunity to discuss this topic with people who don't think I'm nuts for wanting to do this to a 35 year old truck in the first place - its just that I've installed fuel injection on a 60's vehicle before and found that installation and planning was the easy part. The WAY hard part was the tuning and driveability issues that come afterward. THAT makes or breaks whether or not all this trouble is worth it.

Thoughts?

Chris

 

I've never played with the 385 series engines. Don't know what they changed in the heads. I have not had the chance to tow with my efi 390. I still need to incorporate the edis ignition setup and install the overdrive tranny before any real baseline comparison can be made between my carburated truck and my efi truck. Another thing I'm planning to do is try a custom ground hydraulic roller cam. I think a roller cam with the same mannerisms as a crane 901 would be an incredible upgrade for those serious about towing, economy and driveability. I have always been very impressed with my carbed 390 for towing. I've pushed it way past the limits one would expect from 400 cubic inches. I did toast all the valves in the motor pulling 24,000 gvw over the steepest pass around when my PCV vacuum line fell off sometime during the last 20 miles of straight up, but alot worse could have happened in a situation like that. I feel that with properly setup efi and computer controlled ignition the "prehistoric" FE won't disappoint.
Dustin

 

First, let me state that I am not interested in bank firing. This is one of the reasons I am not buying the electronics offered by MegaSquirt today, but waiting for the new one to be released. With it, you get sequential port injection. I will still lack the outputs needed to run a distributor-less firing system, but there are work-arounds and that can be address later.

Second, it seems you have covered all the bases in your Accel 7 system - it sounds like just what the doctor ordered. I would be very interested in the results you obtain from this switch. We are in total agreement about the need for and benefits from a Engine Management System. I want even more than you do from the EMS - I want to program it myself and try out different ideas.

Our situation is different - I just retired (more time than money), and have experience with building prototype controller cards. I also have done some programming, and have many programmers for friends.

If my time was worth anything - your system would be cheaper! But it is a hobby with me. And I want to use it as an engineering platform.

 

Duston, that is not fair - you can not use an overdrive to "prove" efi is better - all that will show is that the overdrive is better!

 

I don't have deep pockets and most of the money I make goes directly into outfitting my shop to tackle such projects and hopefully manufacture products to sell. Machine tools are not cheap, TIG welders are not cheap and CNC machines and tooling are definitely not cheap. I put time and thought into injector placement because I have an in-ability to do things half-assed. When sequential fuel injection is available in my price range in the form of the new megasquirt I will build it, install it and use the old controller on something else or sell it. Thus taking full advantage of injector placement. I'm not advocating people buy a batch megasquirt and install it. My goal is to find a recipe for affordable fuel injection with results that will justify the price. The truck that I've installed efi on is a test bed. It is not the final product. It will evolve as I try new things and figure out what works and what doesn't.
Dustin

 

I have an overdrive in my carbed truck as well. I drive 40-50K annually. An overdrive was a requirement. I need to update my signature and get some photos for my gallery. The comparison between carbed and efi trucks should be rather fair. The engines are very similiar, drivetrain is close enough, same driver, same year. The carbed truck is lifted with 35" bfg's. The efi truck is not. That is the only real difference.
Dustin

 

Chris, I was searching the Accel site and can’t find an application on the distributor for an FE, do you have a part number or a link? I’m also working on an EFI conversion, but I haven’t found a distributor that allows the timing to be controlled by the system. I like to stay away from a crank trigger if possible, and this may be the answer I’m looking for.
Art