Do they make a 2 gang extender box that can screw to a single gang existing box? You would think they would have thought of that already.

 

Hey!

Curious why you said no NM sheathed "Romex" inside of EMT conduit? I've wired several shops that way - just used 3/4" conduit and it pulled fairly easily. Grounded at all boxes, used all proper connectors & insulators, etc.

My current garage/shop is only a 1-car, but I completely re-wired everything. I pulled all the 110V house wiring out of the main panel and put it in a sub-panel. Then added another sub-panel to run shop stuff. That has lights, two 110V outlet circuits (about 18 or 20 outlets IIRC), dedicated 220V circuits for jointer, welder, table-saw.

I don't anticipate an inspection in my future. Home inspections for real-estate purposes are not going to dig deep into stuff like that here, but I don't have any skeletons to hide (I mean, we have to *live* here...I'm not going to wire it unsafely!). I do have to replace the sheetrock around the panels sometime, but that's no biggie. Just rock, and a little mud&tape at the seams - doesn't have to even be sanded.

Oh, and the "National Electrical Code" doesn't trump local rules. Every inspector will do things his way -- and the way that his local rules are written. Most follow the NEC, but many have divergencies that can trip you up.

-Sam

 

NEC is the minimum for electrical codes.
Any local juristiction can have more stringent codes, but nothing less stringent than NEC.

Also the NEC is written by the National Fire Protection Association, so it is all about keeping you alive and well not burning.

All outlets that are accessable from either concrete or ground level outside shall be GFCI protected. This covers basements and garages because concrete conducts enough electricity to shock you.

As far as running romex in conduit, the extra layers of sheathing on the romex may put you over the allowable conduit fill.

Also you should look at what you are plugging in, you should never load a circuit to more than 80% of rated ampacity. So a 20 amp circuit gives you 16 amps available. Also pay attention to the recepticals as to their rated ampacity, some are as low as 10 amps connected load, average is 15 and some are 20. The 20's cost a little more money. I would worry about 18 recepticals on one circuit, it has the potential to be easily overloaded. This is very true in a garage. Remember that most vacuum cleaners are drawing around 12 to 15 amps, that does not let much else be on at the same time. A 13 amp shop vac and a 5.5 amp drill = 18.5 amps which is over the allowable load for one 20 amp circuit.

There is no code as to how far a receptical must be from a door or window in the NEC.

BOCA references the NEC as to the electrical requirements.

NEC requires 1 outlet and one light in a garage space as minimum.
Since most people do not work on their cars in their garages they have no requirement for height. I geneally run them at 4 feet because any gas fumes are close to the floor.

I am in WV and this could be all different where you are. It depends on the code that the local or state government has adopted. Locally we are still on the 96 NEC.
There is a town over the hill that will not allow plastic boxes for electrical wiring, but they are fine in the three other adjoining towns.

 

Ahhh, sure. Well, glad I went with 3/4" EMT then. Should have no probelms.

That is certainly my understanding as well. I went with 10 outlets each on two 20A circuits, all using 12-2 wire and the heavy, "industrial" $5.00 20A outlets (with the cross-slot for a 120V/20A appliance plug), in metal boxes with raised metal coverplates, all boxes hard grounded. And the extra outlets are all simply to avoid having to run extension cords and/or to always be able to plug something in near where I want to use it. I'll never have a need to run more than (at most) 3 or 4 things on those two circuits. Overkill, overkill, overkill. But we sure use the space to its max capacity so we count on the electrical system.

Thanks for the clarifications.
-Sam

 

It gives 20A available. Circuits designed for continious load need to be designed to follow the 80% rule, doesnt apply to general purpose recepts but its a good idea to keep in mind anyway. I have lots of recepts one to a circuit, but there are multiple users and dozens of devices that you wouldnt have in a home garage. There are some good sites with forums like this.
http://forum.doityourself.com/forumd....php?forumid=9
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/ good site with pics and diagrams.
http://www.handymanwire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php

 

I understand the GFI for the 120V recepticles but what about 220V? Do they sell double pole GFI breakers? Are the 220V also required to be GFI?

 

These posts bring up a question for me..

I am about to plug in a 220v welder, which requires, peek, 20 amps. This thing has a short leadin cord, only 6 feet, so I'll eother have to replace that or use an extension cord. Max 20 feet.

So, the outlet in the wall of the garage is fed with 12/3 wire.(plus ground)

1. which was is best, extension cord between outlet and welder leadin cord or longer leadin?
2. I've seen tables that show the extension cord should be 10 ga after some length, but if the wire in the wall to the breaker panel is only 12 ga, what good is that?
3. This panel in the garage is fed directly from the main, and is a 60 amp subpanel.
1 breaker is 220v/20a for my compressor
1 breaker is 220v/20a for an optional window AC/Heat unit, not installed
6 breakers are 110v/20a for garage outlets,
fridge plugged into 1
mini hot water plugged into another (15amp)
4 are not normally in use at any one time.

I will need to run another 220v/20a outlet on this side of the garage for use by the welder.

Sam

 

One of the reasons for NOT running Romex in conduit is due to heat build up. Individual wires (THHN) would be better.

 

GotLift,
They do make a box like your looking for. It will be a 4 x 4 box that is 1.5 inches deep. In the back of the box in the center there is a rectangular hole the size of a single gang box. I'm not exactly sure who makes it tho, maybe raco or thomas& betts. I can look it up tomorrow at work and post the manufact. item number so you can go to Home Depot or wherever and ask for it. Then you can get a 4 x4 raised GFI cover for that box and it will clear the connector threads.

 

Sam, the outlet you have must be 4 wire, 12/3 with ground. A welder is 3 wire feed, you do not use the neutral. A cord is listed with 3 wires a cable that says 3 is really 4. The welder needs 2 hots and a ground. For 50 ft or so a 12 will be good. how far is the recept from the breaker panel? If it is only a few ft and you were going to use a long extension cord it would still be helpful to use a 10 in the cord, this is to reduce friction or line loss. If you have to buy wire you need a 10/2 wg, 2 conductor with ground, tape the white wires with black tape to indicate its use as a hot wire. Make or by a cord, do not alter the cord on the machine.

 

Ok,
the recepticle would be about 4 feet below the panel. staight down.

so, put a plug on the machine cord, build a 10/2 wg 25ft extension cord,
plug that into the wall recepticle and the machine cord into the extension.

I would have replaced the machine cord with the longer one..

Sam

 

A cord will be listed as 10/3, a cable like a Romex is listed 10/2 and it is assumed there is a ground wire (bare are not counted). The cords conductors are all insulated so they are counted. At 25 ft a 12 would be plenty except that the plug and recepts for these welders are designed for 10 and larger conductors. And, it wont hurt anything being bigger. The welder comes (like a HH175) actually all 230V machines I believe (up to 50A), come with a 6-50-P (plug) and use a 6-50-R (recept) I think a 6-50 is listed for use with a number 10 thru a number 4 wire.

 

As long as you have a 20A breaker on this circuit you could use any recept 20A rated and above on the wall. These types of circuits are misunderstood. This welder will actually plug into circuits of up to 50A. The breaker size cannot be rated heavier then the recept rating. Using a 20 takes care of all of that. I doubt it will ever happen with your machine but should it ever trip a breaker some minor changes to this circuit would need to be made. I like to run number 10 minimum to the recept and it allows for breaker changes or the use of larger machines like common stick welders. Most of the small stick machines will run on a 50brkr, 10 wire and 50A recept, it is a welder circuit and not a general use 50A circuit (there is a difference). Not for devices such as ranges or a pottery kiln. It is the reason homeowners are often advised to run number 6 wire when using 50A breakers because someone may not check for wire size when hooking other types of equipment in the future. I always check wire size when installing equipment of this nature.

 

(quotes from the manual)

This welder comes with the line cord, but no plug. 'Connect a 3-prong, 220 VAC, polarized, twist-lock plug (1)'
I looked up the 6-50-R, and I see that I have 6-20-R currently for my 220 legs. This welder is max draw 18A '220 VAC, 18 Amps, 60 Hz, single phase'

If I use a 6-50R, then I will have to change the one at the far side of the garage if I ever need to weld near there. (garage is 35ft wide)

I think by putting in a 6-20R I would be telling whoever that this is was a low power 220 circuit, NOT for ranges, dryers etc.

or is that too near the limit? (18 draw vs 20 recpt rating)

Sam

 

No, the 20 is fine and you should have no problem. You will be limited to 20 A breaker which is what you have. What welder is this?