Thanks Craigwell. I'll look you up.

 

you guys dont seem to like diesels much here,why?
craigwell,diesels really burn cleaner that gas engines,why do ya think diesels are so popular in europe?
yellowrosefarm,i wouldnt be afraid of a 7.3 with 250,000 on it.just see if the guy has any service records with it,the 7.3 s need coolant additives to fight cavitation because of thier very high 21:1 compression ratio.
just remember those old IDI's arent fast but they are very reliable engines,and if you wanted more power stick a banks or ats on top of it.

 

i agree new diesels with catalytic convertors are relatively clean burning, with the caveat that all convertors degrade over time, and then engine emissions, (not to mention the stuff blowing out of the convertors..) become high again. the older engines considered for the swap would be higher polluters.

soot from diesel exhaust is the main problem.. suspended particulates and yer lungs don't get along... low sulpher diesel and bio diesel are better, but does that really make them better than gas engines? i'm sure it's true for bio diesel, but not sure about low sulpher...

I read somewhere about the cases of lung cancer skyrocketing in the areas around border crossings, where many diesel rigs idle for long periods of time since NAFTA was signed..

i know automotive diesels pollute far less and are held to higher standards than large trucks or trains and ships, but the soot issue is what really digs me..

besides that, they're noisy and smelly.. heheheh

propane and natural gas are on the opposite end of the spectrum with regards to pollution.. they also are much better on the gasoline engines they're adapted to.... lower emitters, without catalytic convertors..

just my two cents, dont profess to know all the answers..

 

Rancherman, I had an 88 F-250/7.3, for some 90K miles. I think it had 170k on it when I sold it.
It rarely ever got more than 10 Mpg. lot's of times it was down to 5 Mpg pulling a heavy load.
I belong to another website for Ford diesels. The IDI forum is full of guys asking about the poor milage and low power of those 7.3's.

I wouldn't waste any money or time installing an engine that get's the same milage as the factory engine.
The Cummins and Izusu seem to get better milage. Nearly 18 mpg. But, and it's a big BUt, the noise is absolutly unbearable.
There is no Power gain to speak of either. Niether of those two engines has the power of a 460.

I think (my two cents worth) if a guy was going to spend money on a 460 to get power, there is a Kit from somplace in California that turns your 460 into a 502.
Now that should run with the Power Strokes.
And that 502 is likely to burn the same Mpg as the original 460.

Installing a Diesel sounds good. But all you have to do is get near on of those installations for a little bit and you'll be real happy with the 460 again.

 

thudpucker, i belong to that forum to,but gearing and how heavy your right foot is has alot to do with fuel milage.
i put the banks y-pipe and exhaust with a k&n and i get 18 to 20 empty,and 10-12 loaded.
like i said shes not fast towing,a 460 would probably walk past me on a good hill,but i'll pass that 460 at the next fuel station.
oh by the way a 7.3 IDI with turbo will keep up with a stock powerstroke.
there is nothing like the smell and noise of a diesel,i love it!
dont get me wrong guys i dont hate gassers,i had a 300 in my 84 f-250 4x4 with 300,000 + miles,great engine but with 4.56's and a 4 speed it only got about 8 mpg,loaded or empty. .the thing would pull a house down,and push snow like crazy,but now i would never go back to a gas in a truck,never ever.

 

The 5.9 Cummins are unbearably loud I don't know why you can hear one a block away they are worse than a 2 stoke detroit for noise. The 460 has grunt the only diesel that will match it for road speed and snap is a 7.3 PSD.

My uncle has a 78 F-250 4x4 460 power with big rubber under it he goes from here lowermainland to Alaska and back hunting the 460 guzzles back 1200 dollars in fuel

My old EFI 460 in my F-450 that weighed 8200lbs with me and nothing else got around 8mpg tops put a load on the truck she dropped down to 5mpg. The truck had the power thou even grossing 17,000lbs with a load of gravel in the box. The 460 would pull like h*ll but I could watch the fuel needle drop I had to sell the truck she burned too much fuel. I have a IDI now get 12mpg and travel slower but my fuel expenses are not breaking the bank account.

As for propane I wouldn't have it again I had a 460 powered truck on propane it didn't save me any fuel. I converted it back to gas and I got better mpg because I didn't need my foot into it all the time. I had a motocraft 4bbl with vacuum secondarys I don't think I ever kicked the 4bbls in I never needed too. My brother used to have a 85 F-350 4x4 with a 460 auto when he drove the truck he was always using the 4bbls because he didn't know how to use rpm and momentum. When I drove the truck I could whistle along without even kicking in the 4bbl just because I know how to gain speed without flooring it.

Do I miss having the power of a 460 sure I do but do I miss the poor fuel mileage NOPE. When your dealing with old 70s trucks nothing you can do about it have to stick with the gas a diesel conversion is pricey.

My old F-450 with the 460 used to scream along empty like no tommorow you wouldn't think you were driving a 8000lb truck.



Good luck

 

I liked my diesel. I was dissappointed in a lot of it's properties, but I liked it.
In Alaska during the winter it was very comforting to hear it start in a turn or turn and a half. Such heat, so quickly too.
I had a D-50 turbocharged 4 cyl Diesel. I liked that one too.

The Turbo was very good, but the IDI was only adequet.
For "Adequet" I'm not spending a lot of money and time.

I know about all the enhancments to the IDI. Again I say, if I have to spend extra money and violate the engineering of the engine to get something usable, I'm going to do something else.

The one thing I really liked about the Diesel was the starting. If it's gonna start, its running at the first turnover.

I think the diesels run a lot longer without engine failures. No Valve/Ring/bearing failures for the life of the vehicle.
Gassers arent' like that.

But for the differences, there is no value, no gain at all, in changing out a 460 and replacing it with a DIesel.

If I could get 5 mpg more, it would cut the cost of my round trips to Alaska by a third.
So for that reason, I'd feel grateful to swap out my 460 for a 300 Six.

My 300's used to pull my 3500 Lb boat and trailer OK. Just a little slow on the hills.
I'd go back to that in exchange for the higher milage.

A power stroke would do the job!

 

a propane powered engine will burn as much fuel as a gasoline engine, but it's usually much cheaper than gas, and has the benefit of being cleaner burning, and easier on the engine.. less contaminants to get into your crankcase..

there is less thermal efficiency (btu's) to propane than gasoline, but if your power loss is notable, add an RV camshaft to the engine to get back lost power... another nice point to propane, is it's octane level..... 116.... that opens a lot of possibilities..



I think tuning might help wring better mileage from your 460... that and driving habits.. I've seen 460's get around 15+ mpg, and I've gotten 20+ from my 351M, and a 300 six I ran before.

My new setup is 300 six + AOD, 4.10 gears... but i don't use my truck for much super-heavy haulin, or intense wheeling or drag racing.. heheheh (couldnt if i wanted to, i guess..) my truck weighs 5500 lbs

 

The price of propane in this area isn't cheap the days of the 40 cent per litre propane is gone I haven't checked lately but I'am pretty sure its upto the high 70 cent pushing into the 80 cents per litre.

Where propane works well is in old medium duty trucks with gas pot engines as it makes the engines run smoother you get old IHC gas engines they run pretty rough on gas. Same with the 366 and 427 Chev which is used in most GMC Bluebird school busses.

The old 300-6s are slow but they do fairly well on fuel put them in a heavier truck you don't win any races thats forsure. The old 460 is a workhorse but back in the 70s and early 80s gas was cheap or cheaper so who cares if the engine sucked back the fuel.

With the price of gas skyrocketing out of this world its pretty hard to run gas powered trucks and try make a buck with it. Trying to use a 460 powered truck for a daily driver is not a wise idea unless you drive like you have a egg under your right foot.

 

i was in the lower mainland in july, and propane was in the 50s still.. it may have gone up since then, obviously.. it's about the same as gasoline here on the "least" coast, and i've been annoyed about that for years..

agreed on the medium duty trucks point... lot of them in the fraser valley, eh? I wonder how efficient the new ambulances and mini busses are that the gvrd operate... electronically controlled propane...

 

The newer vehicals are getting real expensive to convert to propane like the local schoolbus fleet is trying out the Bluebird vision with the cat power. They are saving some money in fuel but the extra cost at purchase for the diesel is quite abit I think it was 10-14 grand extra over a gas pot.

The new Cat powered bus has lots of power albeit the gvw on the bus is 34,000lbs for a 72pas bus. The new visions have to run a 23,000lb rear axle to stand up to the torque of the engine along with a 12,000lb front axle to carry it.

The fraser valley is mostly farmers so you will see alot of med duty gas pots on propane. You mainly see older Chev and GMC trucks or F-series Fords some Internationals. You see the odd Chev tandem axles with gas power those are real slow and burn lots of fuel.

 

It's been a while since I checked in so I need to say thanks for all the replies. I'm convinced that the Cummins would be the way to go but unless I could find a complete Dodge parts truck I wouldn't attempt it. Propane is not a good option down here as it is always more expensive than gas and is hard to find for filling. I'm starting on the bodywork now and will get back to the MPG issue when that is done. I haven't been able to fill the tank up for a while because the filler neck has a hole in it. The "new" bed I'm putting on has a good neck with it so that will be taken care of with the rest of the bodywork. I hate to go trying things to improve mileage without being able to measure the results. BTW, this truck is not a daily driver, I only use it to pull the stock or flat bed gooseneck trailers or for hauling. I have an Isuzu spacecab for everything else.

 

In Boats, a Ford/Lehman etc, up to the GM 6/71 burn Five Gallons per Hour per Hundred HP.
So assuming 200 HP, the boat engine running at cruise (3200) would burn 10 Gal per hour.
So assuming that Cruise on a Pickup is 70Mph at 3200, and using a 200Hp Diesel, it should also burn about 10 Gal per Hour.

How they rate the HP is suspicious in my mind. I looked at a John Deere last week. A huge engine, and it was rated at 60 Hp.
I dont remember how the boat endines were rated but the GM 6/71 had several ratings and all of them under 100 Hp.

So with my stats (I'm pulling out of the air) the Diesels should all get about the same fuel milage, but they dont.
My Friends 92 Cummins got 18 pulling the 5er. More empty. How'd they do that?
My Son in law's 97 PSD only gets 17 empty, and down to 12 pulling the 5er.
I reallly think the PSD's are the best available. Heavy Weight and low fuel milage are two factors that keep them in those bigger trucks.
I'm going for a geared down Diesel if I ever get the chance at one.

The reason we should all be using Diesels, is that the Fuel processors have to break the crude down to Diesel to run the Hydro-Crackers.
So Gasoline is an extra expense to them. IF nobody used Gas, our Diesel would be cheaper.

Rancherman, the only reason I didn't Turbo my 7.3 was Money. (the truck is still running with over 300K on it)

 

A 460 and a Cummins. No comparrison on power or fuel economy.
Sorry guys.
My 460 had no where near the power my Cummins does. It maybe tougher to swap BUT parts are cheaper and more plentiful for the Cummins. I'm no troll I LOVE my Fords. This Dodge is the first I've owned and absolutely love it.....I HATE the payments.

BTW I get 12 mpg with the Cummins towing 22k with a 28' GN from NC to Ohio...if you've driven that strip you know thats very good mileage. I can get 23 unloaded , IF I fill up on the road, truck warmed up etc, then right back out on the road, basically to the next fill up. Normal driving to and from work it gets 19mpg.
It is a 2003/4wd QC/swb/srw/6spd/3.73 The only mods are an AFE filter and dual exhaust, not stacks. I carry tools etc at all times it weighs in at almost 9k

My 1997 Ford was a 460/4wd/xtra cab/lwb/srw/3.73 it would get 13 with a tail wind (seems to be the average) and anywhere from 9 to 4 pulling a trailer. The biggest load it ever had was 17k and it was screaming to pull it.

I really am not a Dodge fan...BUT when it comes to diesels the Cummins is hard to beat.
I studied long and hard before buying the Dodge. I compared them all and even included the What ifs......Like what if it needs injectors, or a turbo, or...or. I couldn't beat the Cummins/Dodge Combo.
If you want the best diesel for your truck, go with the Cummins, if you want the easiest to do, go with the 6.9/7.3.
Or better yet, stick with a 460 and do a little tuning on it, you'll be ahead in the long run.

KO

 

A 78 model 460 engine (re)built to stock specs won't be a power or fuel mileage champion. That was the late 70s and early 80s for you.

The stock 460 heads reek and the cam probably does as well.

Change those up and things start to get better for that 460.