So, what do y'all think? We have some serious mixed views on the board right now, and it would be an excellent topic to discuss. Me, I'm voting for diesel, and here's why.
Diesel gets better mileage than a gasser.
Diesel gets the same gas mileage with 38 inch tires as it does with 31 inch tires.
Diesel has loads more torque than a comparably-sized gas engine.
Diesel is cheaper than gas.
Diesels have no ignition system, a lot less that can go wrong.
Diesels rely on compression for combustion, so they are automatically built heavy-duty because of this, so they last quite a bit longer than any comparable gas motor, just by the basic design.
Diesels tow more comforatably with a lot more power down low where you need it.
Diesels are easy to upgrade and to work on.
Diesels are naturally strong, to build a gasser to compete with a diesel, you'll have to upgrade your tranny, clutch, and your engine, and if you do any mods at all, you lose your warranty.
I can't think of any advantages that gas has over diesel, but I'm sure there are some. What are your thoughts?

 

I like diesels but they aren't for everyone. Here's a few of their disadvantages I can think of.

1. They take longer to warm up especially when it's cold out.
2. Due to this they aren't good for someone who just makes short trips
3. Maintenance costs are higher
4. There are less places to fuel them.
5. They cost around 5000 dollars more than a gas engine to buy initially.

Despite these shortcomings I would still buy one if I had the money

Btw: Diesel isn't always cheaper than gas. It just happens to be right now

 

Diesels dont necessarily get the same fuel mileage regardless of tire diameter.
Diesels can be hard to keep warm in very cold climates.

Another plus for diesels is. When we have depleted mother earth of her oil resources. Diesels will burn whatever is left.

 

NOx and particulate emissions are much higher, but they are working on that.

IF I could get an F-150 with a 150-200hp diesel for a $1000-$2000 premium over gas, I would buy it. Unfortunately, the only ones currently available in the US are way to powerful and expensive for my needs.

Jim

 

Diesel fuel has approximately 30% more energy ounce for ounce than gasoline
diesel fuel requires less refining that gasoline
diesel fuel has no MTBE!

we have the ability to make fuel for diesels in the u.s. with zero help from foreign countries. would also help alot of farmers, and would eliminate gub-mint handouts to farmers!

i feel ALL cars/trucks should be diesel powered! it will certainly help the big two meet CAFE standards!

no pro gas yet?
where are all of our v-10 bretheren?

 

Has anybody ever looked at their diesel closely?? ever noticed the cords coming out the front of them??? you can 'plug' your diesel into the standard house outlets so it will stay warm (glow plugs). It cylces up and down but when you catch it at the peak of the cycle it starts right up. Where to ya'll come up with the maintenance is higher??? Could ya'll please explain, the only problem out of my PSD was when the cam sensor went out(dang computers). When diesel goes up expect to pay more for EVERYTHING you have. How do you think produce get from store to store. Once the diese prices go up, contractors have to go up on their prices acoording to fuel cost. why are ya'll complaing that it cost 5k more than a gas engine? If ya'll would ever sit down and do the math, diesel pays for it self again and again through gas prices and fuel mileage. Also, resale on a diesel vs. a gas engine with the same mileage diesel trucks tend to sale for 4-6k more, so theres your initial 5k payed back. I admit,there might be less places to fuel up a diesel truck, but with a V-10 you cant afford to pass up a gas station. Just about every 1 out of 3 stations have diesel. How often are ya'll filling up to complain about station location?
Just my two cents, someone please contradict my statments and prove me wrong

 

Parking a diesel in a garage stinks up the garage.
Parking a diesel in an attached garage stinks up the whole house.
Backing a diesel in a garage makes black soot marks on the walls.

 

Since I have one of each I might as well put my 2 cents in.

It really depends on where you live, and what you use your truck for. I like my diesel for pulling trailers or highway MPG, but for around-the-farm chores and off-roading I'd rather have the gasser.

With my '04 I chose the V10 for these reasons:

1 - It'll start at 30+ below without being plugged in.
2 - It's lighter, and tends to be better for off-roading.
3 - Sometimes I park in the barn in the winter, and with the gasser I can start it inside without getting soot on the walls or killing the livestock.
4 - I buy a new truck every year, so payback on gas mileage really wasn't a factor.
5 - The only diesel you could get was the 6.0L, which I didn't trust.

The cold-start problem is a big issue - I make trips up to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and into northern Minnesota, and sometimes I might be miles from an electrical outlet...and I don't like having to start a campfire under my truck just to get the engine to start. I've also had my current diesel stranded in the back 40 a couple of times...I take it out back in the winter and get it stuck in the snow, and by the time I get it out the engine is too cold and it won't start. Not a huge deal, but definitely annoying.

As far as durability, I'm not sure the newer diesels with turbos have any advantages - I know a lot of people with heavy-duty trucks, and in general the guys with diesels seem to be having just as many (if not more) mechanical problems as the guys with gassers. I know of a few people who have spent $5,000-$10,000 on their diesels before they hit 200,000 miles...and you could easily replace a gas engine for that. Maybe the colder climate tends to be hard on diesels, I dunno. Heck, one guy with an '02 PSD is already on his third turbo unit...though one of them was covered under warranty.

Personally, I think people should just buy what they like...if you want a diesel, buy one - and if you want a gasser, buy one. I'm not sure why people are always arguing about it...

LK

 

Well said LK

I was under the impression that this thread was just to point out both the advantages and disadvantages of diesels, but of course it always turns into a debate. Diesels are awesome and I would love to have one in my driveway but you can't ignore that they, like everything, have disadvantages. They are great for a lot of people but aren't the single answer to all the worlds problems (cafe requirements, emissions, etc)

As for them paying for themselves. I've seen threads on here where people have actually calculated it out and found that you have to own your vehicle at least 100,000 miles to get back the extra cost.

Earlier when I referred to increased maintenance costs, I was thinking of the extra cost for routine service such as oil changes since diesels have a much larger oil capacity (not that it matters for me because my ford dealer gives me free oil changes anyway), and correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there water separating filters and a few other things that you don't have to deal with with a gas motor? If someone that owns one could elaborate more that'd be great because I'm curious myself.

 

Exactly. You have to drive a diesel for a LONG time....several years at least before you start earning back that extra $6k you paid for the engine. So for most people, its actually not worth it. The only time a diesel is worth buying is if you are planning to drive way above the U.S. average mileage annually, OR you need the truck for your line of work.

And maintenance costs are WAY higher. First of all...over a dozen quarts of oil instead of 6, more filters, etc. If something breaks it's more expensive to fix as well. Diesels are not quite as "tough" either...try letting a little water get in the fuel or let the engine get just a hair out of tune.

So I'd say for the average person, gas engines have the most advantages. But for the really hard working people the extra torque of the diesel and the better fuel economy can be real nice. We couldn't tow our equipment without ours.

 

I am the Vice President of a trucking company, so I know a little bit about selecting the right truck for the right job.

When selecting between gas or diesel engines, the trucking industry uses a rule of thumb called the "30/30 rule".

The "30/30 rule" says that to make a diesel more cost effective than gas, your truck must meet one of two criteria:
(1) haul over 30,000 pounds
or
(2) drive over 30,000 miles per year.

If you do not meet one of these two criteria, you should buy a gas engine.

In my opinion, most diesel pickups are purchased as a fashion item. The diesel engine is no more needed than a set of chrome mud flaps. Nice to have, but not a neccessity.

My company owns several hundred Kenworth trucks with 15 liter diesel engines. We haul 105,000 pound loads over the Rocky Mountains of Montana. But my daily driver is an F-150 with the 4.2 V6.

 

LK: Actually your much more likely to kill them w/ a gasser. Diesel put out far less carbon monoxide (almost none) as well as hydrocarbons. I know you meant it as a joke, but far too many people have that impression. Diesels make more nitrous oxide befor 50K miles but afterwards they make less(on average). As for particulates diesels put out far more, but they are larger (10 microns) and aren't as likely to get deep in you lungs. Gassers put out many more 1 micron sized particles that are much more likely to get into and penetrate the lungs. The smaller particles are also more likely to just hang in the air waiting to be breathed in. You sit in a garage w/ the gasser, I'll take the diesel

 

When making the gas vs. diesel comparison people often quote MSRP for the diesel option which noone in their right mind pays. Assuming that the diesel is a $5K upgrade, the V10 is an $800 upgrade so the real difference is not $5K. Without ever towing or hauling a thing, the diesel will pay for itself over time. Usually by 100K it has paid for itself, give or take either direction. Obviously the more you tow and haul the quicker it pays for itself. Also, in most parts of the country diesel is cheaper than regular gas most of the year. When it comes time to sell the truck the diesel is worth more money than the V10, so even if you havn't reached the break even point you still recover your money. % towards break even point + higher value = at least what you paid for the diesel option.

What's my point?

1. The reason that Ford and other auto manufacturers offer both gas and diesel engines is because of the consumers needs and wants.

2. The $5K cost of the diesel option is not money flushed down the toilet at the time of purchase.

3. A diesel will pay for itself over time whether you tow or not.

4. This is a free country and people can drive what they want regardless of their needs. There are plenty of diesel and gas pickup trucks that never carry a load or tow.

Personally, I tow about 20 hours/week. I would not trade my diesel for any gas engine. My best ever mileage is 20 MPG and I typically average 17 MPG (4.10 gears). The Ford Expedition I used to have almost never came even close to 15 MPG with the 5.4 V8 and at this point in time I don't see myself considering a gas engine in the near future.

Modern diesels are cleaner than comperable gas engines, they just pollute the environment in different ways. Since the diesel exhaust is particulate it is more visible. The 6.0 PSD is classified as an ultra-low emissions vehicle by the EPA, the V10 is not. While diesel exhaust may lead to health problems, exhaust from a gas engine causes death!

 

Somehow I knew someone would bring that up.

Yeah, I realize that technically the exhaust from the gas engines is worse, but the problem with the diesels is starting them indoors when it's well below zero - while they've gotten better over the years, diesels still put out an awful lot of emissions in the first 30 seconds or so on a cold morning. Gas engines do as well, but when I start my gas engine indoors on a cold morning opening the door tends to vent out a lot of the fumes...but with the diesel, those fumes seem to hang in the air a lot longer. I do plug in the block heater on the diesel, but sometimes you have an unexpected need to go someplace - so either you leave the truck plugged in all the time (and use a lot of electricity), or you end up starting it without the heater.

As far as the initial cost of the diesel, I found it to be approximately $6,000 more than the V10...even with my supplier discount. I pay approximately invoice price for my vehicles, and the diesel has an invoice of $4,300 versus $500 for the V10. So, the actual initial difference is $3,800...but then you have to add these factors:

The auto with the diesel is $300 more than the auto for the V10.
The V10 has a $1,000 higher discount - and when I bought my truck it was $1,500.

So, now the difference between the V10 and the diesel is $5,100 - even for someone who buys their truck at invoice. Then, figure the cost of financing that $5,100...assuming you're not paying cash. I think that works out to $700-$1,000, depending on the life of the loan and the interest rate. So, a realistic real-world figure is $6,000 more for the diesel than the V10 - and if someone pays sticker they're talking more like $7,000. Some of that comes back on resale value, but only if you sell it in the first 5 or 10 years - and the average person doesn't put on enough miles that they really see a benefit to the diesel in that short a time. Around here, V10s actually have an excellent resale value - I've seen 2002s that were nearly identical to my truck sell for within $2,000 of what I paid for my new 2004.

Of course, that value has probably gone down now that gas is nearly $2 a gallon.

Figuring a mileage payback for a diesel is nearly impossible - it depends on how much you tow, how much you drive, where in the country you live, the average prices of gas in both the winter and summer, the cost of electricity to run the block heater on the diesel, relative insurance costs, relative maintenance costs, registration fees, resale value, and about 10 other things. When I crunched all the numbers, for me a diesel didn't pay itself back until it hit 200,000-250,000 miles - and personally I don't want to drive a truck with that many miles, because then I've got other repair issues to worry about. Plus, in this area of the country diesels usually end up rusting out before they wear out anyway.

So, as I said people might as well just buy whatever they want - in the end that's what really matters, because what's the point of spending $30-$40K and then ending up with a truck you don't like?

Now, what I *REALLY* want is for ford to take the V10 and make it into a 8.2L V12...with the 3-v heads it'd make about 425hp and 540 ft-lbs of torque, and then I could get some cool V-12 emblems.

LK

 

One thing we should remember in our calculations of how long before the diesel pays for itself is the cost of money.

If you're paying cash for both trucks, the gas buyer has (let's say) $4,000 to put in the stock market and make 8%/year over the next five years. Now he's got $5,800 and a truck with 100,000 miles, and the diesel owner only has a truck with 100,000 miles.

If you're both financing the vehicles over 5 years (let's say $31,000 for gas and $35,000 for diesel) at 2.9%, The diesel owner will pay $37,620 vs. $33,300 for the gas owner, a difference of $4,320. The monthly payments will be around $627 for diesel, $555 for gas.

These are just hypotheticals, but I'm just saying that the initial price difference in cash shouldn't be thought of as sitting under a mattress--it should be working for you. And we all know the difference in debt is working against us--even with rates as low as they are.