Primer: Types, Applications & Value
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New User
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Rosenberg, Texas
Primer: Types, Applications & Value
I don't know if this the best way to best everyones opinion, but this is the best resources I have found for the subject matter.
I am restoring a 52 Ford F1. Currently I am working on the runningoards and will move to the interior this spring. Any rusted areas on the runningboards have been treated with phosphoric acid.
What is the next best step?
Primer: Enamel Etching or Epoxy?
Brands: Which one is Good, Better, Best?
Application: Ease of application is always good!!!!
Equipment Required for application?
Dollar Value: Cost savings is very good. Best value for the dollar?
Sorry for all the questions, but I've never restored a vehicle and want to do it right the first time, if at all possible.
Also, I would like to use a bedliner product as a top coat on the runningboards and in the interior. Which one is the best? Keeping in mind cost and ease of application.
Thanks for all y'alls help.
_______________
Andrew
1952 Ford F1
I am restoring a 52 Ford F1. Currently I am working on the runningoards and will move to the interior this spring. Any rusted areas on the runningboards have been treated with phosphoric acid.
What is the next best step?
Primer: Enamel Etching or Epoxy?
Brands: Which one is Good, Better, Best?
Application: Ease of application is always good!!!!
Equipment Required for application?
Dollar Value: Cost savings is very good. Best value for the dollar?
Sorry for all the questions, but I've never restored a vehicle and want to do it right the first time, if at all possible.
Also, I would like to use a bedliner product as a top coat on the runningboards and in the interior. Which one is the best? Keeping in mind cost and ease of application.
Thanks for all y'alls help.
_______________
Andrew
1952 Ford F1
Elder User
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 999
Likes: 1
From: Willamette Valley Oregon
<cr>
First off, some self-etch primers can not be used over the top of phosphoric acid etched metal.
The easiest way to get started is to decide what brand of paint you are planning to use. That way you can use a system designed for the paint. Deciding on a brand can be difficult since every painter has their preference. Personally I believe the best brand is the brand you can get locally. Then if you have a question, a knowledgeable vendor will be able to help you out.
All paint companies have a variety of different paint qualities. If you are looking to cut your costs down, ask your vendor for price quotes on their different lines of paint.
The other option is to mix-n-match products. This is what I have chosen to do. I use R-M epoxy (EP series) because it can be use for direct-to-metal (DTM) application and it can be used as a sealer. My 2K (high-build) primer is by Evercoat. I use Diamont paint and clearcoat. Sometimes I'll keep my costs down by using Select clearcoat. All of these products can be reduced with R-M (UR series) reducer.
When mixing-n-matching, you can run into compatiability issues. If problems pop up, you own it.
I know I didn't really answer your question but I hope it gets you started in the right direction.
First off, some self-etch primers can not be used over the top of phosphoric acid etched metal.
The easiest way to get started is to decide what brand of paint you are planning to use. That way you can use a system designed for the paint. Deciding on a brand can be difficult since every painter has their preference. Personally I believe the best brand is the brand you can get locally. Then if you have a question, a knowledgeable vendor will be able to help you out.
All paint companies have a variety of different paint qualities. If you are looking to cut your costs down, ask your vendor for price quotes on their different lines of paint.
The other option is to mix-n-match products. This is what I have chosen to do. I use R-M epoxy (EP series) because it can be use for direct-to-metal (DTM) application and it can be used as a sealer. My 2K (high-build) primer is by Evercoat. I use Diamont paint and clearcoat. Sometimes I'll keep my costs down by using Select clearcoat. All of these products can be reduced with R-M (UR series) reducer.
When mixing-n-matching, you can run into compatiability issues. If problems pop up, you own it.
I know I didn't really answer your question but I hope it gets you started in the right direction.
Last edited by Aekisu; Feb 13, 2004 at 01:20 PM.
New User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17
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From: Portland Oregon
Generally you can catagorize painting process:
1. Bare Metal treatments
2. Undercoat Systems
..... a.Primer
..... b.Primer surfacer
......c.Primer sealer
.....d.Sealer
3.Top Coats
.....a. Alkyd enamels
.....b.Acrylic lacquers
.....c.Acrylic enamels
.....d.Polyurethane enamels
.....e.Acrylic urethane enamels
All manufacturers put out good product...usually
in a system form. Pick a system and use
the product line. Insist on application literature
or TDC's (technical data sheets] and read and
memorize them .
Get knowledgable on the differences
between primer surfacers and primer
sealers..then some of the other mumbo
jumbo names/terms fall into place.
Hope this helps!
1. Bare Metal treatments
2. Undercoat Systems
..... a.Primer
..... b.Primer surfacer
......c.Primer sealer
.....d.Sealer
3.Top Coats
.....a. Alkyd enamels
.....b.Acrylic lacquers
.....c.Acrylic enamels
.....d.Polyurethane enamels
.....e.Acrylic urethane enamels
All manufacturers put out good product...usually
in a system form. Pick a system and use
the product line. Insist on application literature
or TDC's (technical data sheets] and read and
memorize them .
Get knowledgable on the differences
between primer surfacers and primer
sealers..then some of the other mumbo
jumbo names/terms fall into place.
Hope this helps!
Last edited by fordpilot2; Feb 13, 2004 at 08:08 PM.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
From: northern Ky
There are two ways to mix & match. One way would be to use one brand of activator or hardener in another brand of paint. (liquid mixing of different brands) Almost never a good idea. The other way is what Aekisu was talking about - using one brand of primer under another brand of paint. Following proper dry times, it almost always works fine. I used to use Dupont for overalls, and PPG for spot repair, because I had better luck with PPG color matches. But I used the same primer under both.
I've never used R&M epoxy (not available around here that I know of) but PPG's DP-40-LF is also great for direct-to-metal and useable as a sealer, and like the R&M I'm sure, will take just about any kind of filler primer.
A good preparation for any (non self etching) epoxy primer is a water based metal cleaner (metal prep) such as PPG's DX-579. It's inexpensive - mixes 2 to 1 with water.
marc
I've never used R&M epoxy (not available around here that I know of) but PPG's DP-40-LF is also great for direct-to-metal and useable as a sealer, and like the R&M I'm sure, will take just about any kind of filler primer.
A good preparation for any (non self etching) epoxy primer is a water based metal cleaner (metal prep) such as PPG's DX-579. It's inexpensive - mixes 2 to 1 with water.
marc
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 169
Likes: 16
From: Hesperia CA
I had no idea this primer subject was so complicated. All I've used so far is this stuff they keep in the back at the local auto paint store that I just now noticed isn't even intended for retail trade? It also says it formulated for application by trained professinals. So why are they selling it to me? LOL!
Anyway, it's from Western Automotive Finishes, their Refinisher's Select line, and labeled RS4201 if anybody recognizes that. It runs $50 a gallon, reduces with standard lacquer thinner, no hardener, and it's so thick it's like breaking off a piece when ya pour it.
I've been going direct to metal with it, even over sanded surface rust, and so far everything seems OK.
This has been going on for awhile and it's sat out in the weather in a half primed condition for months at a time without any apparent problems. Bear in mind I live in the Hi-Desert area of Southern California.
I'm actually embarassed to admit it but it's been sitting out there half sanded with bare metal exposed for months at a time! I hear you guys talk so much about rust and weather protection I think I must be some kinda idiot.
I was planning on using this stuff all the way thru to topcoat. Seems to fill nicely and it sands like a dream. You guys think I'll be OK with this? Maybe a coat of epoxy primer over it before topcoat?
Anyway, it's from Western Automotive Finishes, their Refinisher's Select line, and labeled RS4201 if anybody recognizes that. It runs $50 a gallon, reduces with standard lacquer thinner, no hardener, and it's so thick it's like breaking off a piece when ya pour it.
I've been going direct to metal with it, even over sanded surface rust, and so far everything seems OK.
This has been going on for awhile and it's sat out in the weather in a half primed condition for months at a time without any apparent problems. Bear in mind I live in the Hi-Desert area of Southern California.
I'm actually embarassed to admit it but it's been sitting out there half sanded with bare metal exposed for months at a time! I hear you guys talk so much about rust and weather protection I think I must be some kinda idiot.
I was planning on using this stuff all the way thru to topcoat. Seems to fill nicely and it sands like a dream. You guys think I'll be OK with this? Maybe a coat of epoxy primer over it before topcoat?
Thread Starter
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New User
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23
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From: Rosenberg, Texas
I just out PPG has a store on the other side of our town. I'll plan on making a visit there next week some time to see what information I can get.
I appreciate the replies to the post I made, alot of times when these types of questions are asked in the 48-60 forum they suggest we ask y'all.
Regarding bedliners, which ones are the easiest to apply and offer the best cost savings?
Thanks
Andrew
I appreciate the replies to the post I made, alot of times when these types of questions are asked in the 48-60 forum they suggest we ask y'all.
Regarding bedliners, which ones are the easiest to apply and offer the best cost savings?
Thanks
Andrew
New User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Your point on "no retail trade" is interesting
as it representa semi chinese veil that hobby
painters have to breach.
Because of Bio-hazard and health hazard most paint
manufacturers are not too interested in the
DIY market. Isocyanates lore has it is what was
used for the extreme rudeness at San Quentin
at one time. So.. the paint companies are worried
you will get yourself in trouble by being
flippant about your personal safety and get them
in trouble by dumping half empty cans of their
product on the vacant lot around the corner.
The paint companies put warnings
and "trained professionals"
type stuff on there labels so if you
show up in court twitching and slobbering
pointing the finger at them they
can point to their lable warnings.
To a certain extent when you do buy DIY retail with
auto paint the counter person is looking you
over asking himself does this person appear
to be on the right track and if not a professional
do they have a professional attitude towards
the products.
Heads up for safety on your bed liner.
Last time I checked some of the products
were iscocyanate formulated...a
fact that seems to have slipped under
the bio radar. I visited this retail bedliner
application one time and
they were pumping straight into the atmosphere.
No filters..nothing. Probably dead canaries for
ten blocks around.
Good Luck!
as it representa semi chinese veil that hobby
painters have to breach.
Because of Bio-hazard and health hazard most paint
manufacturers are not too interested in the
DIY market. Isocyanates lore has it is what was
used for the extreme rudeness at San Quentin
at one time. So.. the paint companies are worried
you will get yourself in trouble by being
flippant about your personal safety and get them
in trouble by dumping half empty cans of their
product on the vacant lot around the corner.
The paint companies put warnings
and "trained professionals"
type stuff on there labels so if you
show up in court twitching and slobbering
pointing the finger at them they
can point to their lable warnings.
To a certain extent when you do buy DIY retail with
auto paint the counter person is looking you
over asking himself does this person appear
to be on the right track and if not a professional
do they have a professional attitude towards
the products.
Heads up for safety on your bed liner.
Last time I checked some of the products
were iscocyanate formulated...a
fact that seems to have slipped under
the bio radar. I visited this retail bedliner
application one time and
they were pumping straight into the atmosphere.
No filters..nothing. Probably dead canaries for
ten blocks around.
Good Luck!
Last edited by fordpilot2; Feb 14, 2004 at 07:10 AM.
