Alt. Fuels why not?
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Richmound, SK, Canada
Land is finite.
The more competition for land use, the greater the value of the commodity. Simple enough.
Competition for everything from cultivatable acreage, to water supplies, to feed grain for cattle will have a LARGE impact on the agricultural industry of North America and therefore on your bottom line as a consumer.
You can attempt to dismiss that all you want, but it won't go away, and it WILL bite you in the pocket book.
Bio fuels are a band-aid at best.
Kannata
P.S. - Raw material costs are only cheap because gov't subsidies keep them that way.
The more competition for land use, the greater the value of the commodity. Simple enough.
Competition for everything from cultivatable acreage, to water supplies, to feed grain for cattle will have a LARGE impact on the agricultural industry of North America and therefore on your bottom line as a consumer.
You can attempt to dismiss that all you want, but it won't go away, and it WILL bite you in the pocket book.
Bio fuels are a band-aid at best.
Kannata
P.S. - Raw material costs are only cheap because gov't subsidies keep them that way.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
From: Toronto, Canada
Bio-fuels don't have to come directly from farm produce. I've seen many examples of people making bio-diesel from waste oil from deep fryers and other restaurant equipment.
The only real problem and admittedly its a big one, is that when you start intensifying agriculture use, you start to get some negative environmental results. Agriculture is the biggest user of fresh water in the world and if biofuels became as prevalent as oil, agriculture would consume even more. This isn't a problem in a place like Ontario where there's freshwater everywhere, but it could be a problem in places where there is hardly enough water to go around already, like Florida, California, and the wheat states - someone step in here, but I think there's a big underground reservoir in Nebraska or Kansas that's running dry.
There would likely be an increased use of fertilizers and pesticides as well. But I think if the market for it was there, companies would develop organic fertilizers and pesticides and that issue could be addressed.
Its highly unlikely that the price of commodities would rise significantly. There is a HUUUUGE over-supply of food and there's more than enough land to support biofuel and existing agricultural needs.
The only real problem and admittedly its a big one, is that when you start intensifying agriculture use, you start to get some negative environmental results. Agriculture is the biggest user of fresh water in the world and if biofuels became as prevalent as oil, agriculture would consume even more. This isn't a problem in a place like Ontario where there's freshwater everywhere, but it could be a problem in places where there is hardly enough water to go around already, like Florida, California, and the wheat states - someone step in here, but I think there's a big underground reservoir in Nebraska or Kansas that's running dry.
There would likely be an increased use of fertilizers and pesticides as well. But I think if the market for it was there, companies would develop organic fertilizers and pesticides and that issue could be addressed.
Its highly unlikely that the price of commodities would rise significantly. There is a HUUUUGE over-supply of food and there's more than enough land to support biofuel and existing agricultural needs.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Richmound, SK, Canada
You guys are failing to see the big picture on a couple of levels.
1- There isn't an infinite supply of land and food. In order to produce bio-fuels on any kind of a commerically significant scale, MASSIVE amounts of biomass would be required - that requires massive amounts of land and input costs. Where is that going to come from? It's just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
2- Farming is big business now for the most part, if you start fueling the continent's vehicles with farming, it will become no different than the corporate America that makes up "big oil". If you want to see the continent's lands being intensively farmed by corporations, not farm families, to create fuel for your car, you'll get it, in spades.
It becomes a matter of profit - profit begets supply and demand. Supply and demand will drive prices up of EVERYTHING that comes from the land.
That's not even getting into the environmental impacts that shakemyspeare mentioned. Where's the environmental gain again?
Kannata
1- There isn't an infinite supply of land and food. In order to produce bio-fuels on any kind of a commerically significant scale, MASSIVE amounts of biomass would be required - that requires massive amounts of land and input costs. Where is that going to come from? It's just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
2- Farming is big business now for the most part, if you start fueling the continent's vehicles with farming, it will become no different than the corporate America that makes up "big oil". If you want to see the continent's lands being intensively farmed by corporations, not farm families, to create fuel for your car, you'll get it, in spades.
It becomes a matter of profit - profit begets supply and demand. Supply and demand will drive prices up of EVERYTHING that comes from the land.
That's not even getting into the environmental impacts that shakemyspeare mentioned. Where's the environmental gain again?
Kannata
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,833
Likes: 5
From: Jefferson, Iowa
Here in Iowa, we are using 10 percent ethonal blend. If the entire country did that. 10 percent might not be that much, but it would make a difference. think one year of not buying any oil. Plus 10 percent lower emissions, sure there are some from ethonal, but not as much as pure gas. Works great here in iowa. Then we have soy biodiesel. If we can run 100 percent, that would be great. Diesel engine last longer, gives Iowa farmers more money for their crops, more money for the government because they will not have to give it to the farmers. I am a fun of small family farms. There are a lot going out around here, people just can not make it. I would love to become a farmer when i grow up, be home all day and work in the fields, be your own boss. But the fact is, it does not pay the bills. Less money going over for terrorists to attack us. Plus we would be a richer country. Ethonal is not the long term solution, but it is a step closer to oil dependance. Plus if we use full synthetics like Mobil 1, we can justify cost be running longer drain intervals because synthetic oil does not shear, so a cleaner motor with running it 3 times longer. Engines last longer meaning less cost and pollution due to vehical dist. I might not put cats on my pickemup, but i still would like oil dependance and a cleaner earth.
Senior User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
I would agree with exactly what RJR99SS has said and would add this.
There is a significiant part of our population, who like us all, get represented by our political leaders and feel like this:
1. They hate and have frightened a majority of us away from nuculer power generation for electricity. ( The last of these plants were built over a decade ago)
2. They hate coal because it's too dirty.
3. They don't want any more oil fields in Alaska and they dont want any more off shore drilling.
4 They dont want to build any more hydro-electric dams and would like to blow up the ones we have now.
5. They have made it nearly impossible to get a permit to build a refinery.
6. They insist that public lands be off limits for oil exploration and drilling.
7. They think we can run the country on solar panels and wind mills. To prove this they have created a house that uses only renewable power sources. Guess where it's at? San Diego,Ca.
I personally believe ( I have no proof) that there is more oil under the surface of the Planet than there is water in all the oceans combined.
And what we are really talking about here is the price of gas.
There is a significiant part of our population, who like us all, get represented by our political leaders and feel like this:
1. They hate and have frightened a majority of us away from nuculer power generation for electricity. ( The last of these plants were built over a decade ago)
2. They hate coal because it's too dirty.
3. They don't want any more oil fields in Alaska and they dont want any more off shore drilling.
4 They dont want to build any more hydro-electric dams and would like to blow up the ones we have now.
5. They have made it nearly impossible to get a permit to build a refinery.
6. They insist that public lands be off limits for oil exploration and drilling.
7. They think we can run the country on solar panels and wind mills. To prove this they have created a house that uses only renewable power sources. Guess where it's at? San Diego,Ca.
I personally believe ( I have no proof) that there is more oil under the surface of the Planet than there is water in all the oceans combined.
And what we are really talking about here is the price of gas.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 576
Likes: 0
Hey, it's about time someone agreed with me.
Seriously though, if you want to find a real intellectual discussion of engines, study Cardot. He was a french physisist who's studies of heat based engines led to the conclusion that a 100% efficient heat engine is completely impossible, and not even ideal according to the rules of the universe. The real interesting thing is that he thought of all this stuff about 70 years before the first internal combustion engine was invented.
Heat....is tricky. You can throw an ice cube at the floor at a certain speed, and the ice will completely melt and turn into water. However you cant bounce the water from the floor at that velocity and create ice. You can burn charcol and create ash, but you can't freeze ash and create charcol!!!
Yep, unfortunaly heat isnt conserved (in an non-isolated system, ie...everything except your refridgerator). You will always have pollution with a heat based engine.
So...unless some total genius makes another kind of engine up, we're stuck with what we have. We can quibble about what kinds of fuel will suit us best...but we'll never be rid of pollution.
The real world is confusing, yes?
Seriously though, if you want to find a real intellectual discussion of engines, study Cardot. He was a french physisist who's studies of heat based engines led to the conclusion that a 100% efficient heat engine is completely impossible, and not even ideal according to the rules of the universe. The real interesting thing is that he thought of all this stuff about 70 years before the first internal combustion engine was invented.
Heat....is tricky. You can throw an ice cube at the floor at a certain speed, and the ice will completely melt and turn into water. However you cant bounce the water from the floor at that velocity and create ice. You can burn charcol and create ash, but you can't freeze ash and create charcol!!!
Yep, unfortunaly heat isnt conserved (in an non-isolated system, ie...everything except your refridgerator). You will always have pollution with a heat based engine.
So...unless some total genius makes another kind of engine up, we're stuck with what we have. We can quibble about what kinds of fuel will suit us best...but we'll never be rid of pollution.
The real world is confusing, yes?
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Richmound, SK, Canada
Originally posted by daveee
I personally believe ( I have no proof) that there is more oil under the surface of the Planet than there is water in all the oceans combined.
I personally believe ( I have no proof) that there is more oil under the surface of the Planet than there is water in all the oceans combined.
Nuclear power is the answer IMHO, on a purely environmental basis, the simple fact is, it's the most friendly energy source by a factor of 10. In terms of safety, nuclear is again ahead by leaps and bounds.
The problem is, nuclear energy has been demonized due to cold war mentality and fear mongering.
Kannata
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Senior User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
I agree with you on nuclear power. It is the answer, but the left has frightened a large percentage of the population away from it.
Recently an aircraft carrier and another Navy ship were sent into port for refueling. These ships were comissioned in the late 70's and are being refueled for the first time. 28 years before needing a fill-up.
My reasoning on the oil question is that we have not even looked for it under the ocean floor except for coastal areas. For the last 40 years our national exploration effort has been in outer space. They have yet to bring back anything humanity can use.
Also Russia and the former Soviet Union has been operating on 1917 technology until just very recently and we have placed much of our own country off-limits to exploration and production.
I am old enough to remember Pres. Jimmy Carter in about 1977 telling the Nation there was only 10-15 years of oil left. Believe me, there is plenty of the stuff. Another thing older people might recall is that when Nuclear power was first introduced the most expensive component was putting meters on the houses and businesses. On a per houshold basis it's dirt cheap. The regulation is the most expensive part.
Recently an aircraft carrier and another Navy ship were sent into port for refueling. These ships were comissioned in the late 70's and are being refueled for the first time. 28 years before needing a fill-up.
My reasoning on the oil question is that we have not even looked for it under the ocean floor except for coastal areas. For the last 40 years our national exploration effort has been in outer space. They have yet to bring back anything humanity can use.
Also Russia and the former Soviet Union has been operating on 1917 technology until just very recently and we have placed much of our own country off-limits to exploration and production.
I am old enough to remember Pres. Jimmy Carter in about 1977 telling the Nation there was only 10-15 years of oil left. Believe me, there is plenty of the stuff. Another thing older people might recall is that when Nuclear power was first introduced the most expensive component was putting meters on the houses and businesses. On a per houshold basis it's dirt cheap. The regulation is the most expensive part.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Richmound, SK, Canada
daveee,
The crust of the earth under the world's oceans is basalt. Hard crystalline rock like granite. It is not capable of acting as a reservoir for oil. Many area of the ocean floor have been sampled, and large portions of it have been analyzed using seismic. Oil production in coastal areas is the result of the deposition of sedimentary rocks. There is no hidden source of oil under the oceans. (Unless you count hydrates, but that's a whole new discussion.)
The former USSR does have huge potential oil reserves, and modern technology is quickly starting to take over. The USSR could rival the middle-east in terms of production within the next 10-15 years. However, they face many of the same technical difficulties that the USA/Canada has and will continue to face.
Here's a site you might be interested in if you want some thorough info on the the most current and accurate estimates of global oil reserves.
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/oilgas/wep/index.htm
You may also want to check out www.aapg.org and www.cspg.org
Kannata
The crust of the earth under the world's oceans is basalt. Hard crystalline rock like granite. It is not capable of acting as a reservoir for oil. Many area of the ocean floor have been sampled, and large portions of it have been analyzed using seismic. Oil production in coastal areas is the result of the deposition of sedimentary rocks. There is no hidden source of oil under the oceans. (Unless you count hydrates, but that's a whole new discussion.)
The former USSR does have huge potential oil reserves, and modern technology is quickly starting to take over. The USSR could rival the middle-east in terms of production within the next 10-15 years. However, they face many of the same technical difficulties that the USA/Canada has and will continue to face.
Here's a site you might be interested in if you want some thorough info on the the most current and accurate estimates of global oil reserves.
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/oilgas/wep/index.htm
You may also want to check out www.aapg.org and www.cspg.org
Kannata
Senior User
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Well, I do not believe for a minute that Canada and the USA face technical difficulties concerning oil exploration or production. The dificulities here are mostly political in nature. We seem to want our oil to come from someplace else. In addition the oil companies are reluctant to make major investments in countries that have unstable governments or near places where populations seem bent on killing each other. It would be pretty stupid of them to invest in some African country that has 60 different languages and the guy in charge is the one with the biggest guns.
Senior User
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Richmound, SK, Canada
daveee,
Look into the problems we face in developing heavy oil and oil sands. The gross supply of oil in the Athabasca Oil sands exceeds the current reserves in the middle east, the problem is the techincal challenges involved in extracting the oil.
Here's a website that will give you an intro and some background.
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/com/Sands/default.htm
Other challenges we face in North America are ever increasing well depths, increasing off shore distances/water depth, harsh climate, etc... The challenges overcome and faced by domestic producers are huge compared to drilling in the middle east.
Look on the USGS site for a comparison of avg depths, production rates and reserve volumes per well in N. A. vs the mid east, the differences are staggering.
Evironmental/political aspects also cause difficulty, but as you pointed out, they're small potatoes compared to exploration in unstable nations.
Kannata
Look into the problems we face in developing heavy oil and oil sands. The gross supply of oil in the Athabasca Oil sands exceeds the current reserves in the middle east, the problem is the techincal challenges involved in extracting the oil.
Here's a website that will give you an intro and some background.
http://www.energy.gov.ab.ca/com/Sands/default.htm
Other challenges we face in North America are ever increasing well depths, increasing off shore distances/water depth, harsh climate, etc... The challenges overcome and faced by domestic producers are huge compared to drilling in the middle east.
Look on the USGS site for a comparison of avg depths, production rates and reserve volumes per well in N. A. vs the mid east, the differences are staggering.
Evironmental/political aspects also cause difficulty, but as you pointed out, they're small potatoes compared to exploration in unstable nations.
Kannata
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 1,428
Likes: 3
From: Summit, NJ
Originally posted by icicle509
"I've seen many examples of people making bio-diesel from waste oil from deep fryers and other restaurant equipment."
God knows we eat enough french fries to power our cars LOL
"I've seen many examples of people making bio-diesel from waste oil from deep fryers and other restaurant equipment."
God knows we eat enough french fries to power our cars LOL
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