Afghanistan Gets a Constitution
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From: Detroit Subs
Afghanistan Gets a Constitution
For those who think that GW's foreign policy doesn't work:
KABUL (AFP) - President Hamid Karzai signed into law Afghanistan (news - web sites)'s new constitution, more than three weeks after the document was approved by a loya jirga, or grand assembly.
The president, surrounded by members of his cabinet, the former king Mohammad Zahir Shah and members of the international community, Monday signed a decree which promulgated the constitution at a brief ceremony at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kabul.
After signing the decree, Karzai turned to those around him and said "congratulations".
On Saturday, Karzai said he was waiting for linguistic and grammatical errors to be removed from the 162-article document first.
The constitution provides a strong presidential system of government for the war-wracked country, backed up by a bicameral parliament.
It paves the way for Afghanistan's first democratic elections and states that men and women have equal rights and duties and that a certain proportion of parliamentary representatives must be women, significant admissions in conservative Afghanistan.
The president, surrounded by members of his cabinet, the former king Mohammad Zahir Shah and members of the international community, Monday signed a decree which promulgated the constitution at a brief ceremony at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Kabul.
After signing the decree, Karzai turned to those around him and said "congratulations".
On Saturday, Karzai said he was waiting for linguistic and grammatical errors to be removed from the 162-article document first.
The constitution provides a strong presidential system of government for the war-wracked country, backed up by a bicameral parliament.
It paves the way for Afghanistan's first democratic elections and states that men and women have equal rights and duties and that a certain proportion of parliamentary representatives must be women, significant admissions in conservative Afghanistan.
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From: Calgary Canada
Now all they need is some liberals to make it workable.
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1. No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Waxy
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1. No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Waxy
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Hey,Bush did something right!Give me a ballot.I'm convinced.Oh,wait a minute,thats one thing he did right,but what were the other things?hmmmmm.Theres Iran,Libya,Korea,Syria,the Israel conflict,and the jury is still out on Iraq.I think i'll wait just a while longer.
What we did in Afghanistan was a good thing.I guess it's a start.
What we did in Afghanistan was a good thing.I guess it's a start.
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Originally posted by Waxy
Now all they need is some liberals to make it workable.
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1. No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Waxy
Now all they need is some liberals to make it workable.
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1. No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Waxy
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From: Lenexa, KS
Waxy makes a good point. Let's see how these newfound constitutional rights and democratic principles hold up when the world's mightiest military picks up and leaves. People have a tendency to behave a little better when standing next to an armed soldier. Only time will tell.
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From: Detroit Subs
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waxy
Now all they need is some liberals to make it workable.
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1.No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
They were there to oust the Taliban, a terrorist organization. Should they have just left a void in its place like what happened in Cambodia?
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Good thing that one of our two countries still has a couple of hundred thousand reasons in the region for Afghanistan to NOT backslide.
Now all they need is some liberals to make it workable.
Seriously though, I applaud the attempt to bring human rights to Afghanistan, but I have a couple concerns-
1.No nation building- Is the US (and Canada) there to fight terrorism and punish those responsible, or are they there to instill, forcibly, western ideals of gov't? A VERY slippery slope.
They were there to oust the Taliban, a terrorist organization. Should they have just left a void in its place like what happened in Cambodia?
2. It's just paper- At this point, I don't think it's workable, let alone actually working. All reports I've heard indicate that other than US strongholds in Kabul and surrounding area, the country has returned to warlord rule and Islamic fundamentalism. Neither of which jive with a democratic constitution. It's one thing to have a piece of paper, it's another to have a populace that believes in and RESPECTS the ideals written down on that piece of paper and a means to carry it out.
Good thing that one of our two countries still has a couple of hundred thousand reasons in the region for Afghanistan to NOT backslide.
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From: Detroit Subs
Originally posted by Fordfaggiole
Hey,Bush did something right!Give me a ballot.I'm convinced.Oh,wait a minute,thats one thing he did right,but what were the other things?hmmmmm.Theres Iran,Libya,Korea,Syria,the Israel conflict,and the jury is still out on Iraq.I think i'll wait just a while longer. What we did in Afghanistan was a good thing.I guess it's a start.
Hey,Bush did something right!Give me a ballot.I'm convinced.Oh,wait a minute,thats one thing he did right,but what were the other things?hmmmmm.Theres Iran,Libya,Korea,Syria,the Israel conflict,and the jury is still out on Iraq.I think i'll wait just a while longer.
What we did in Afghanistan was a good thing.I guess it's a start.
North Korea isn't rattling its sabers as loud as it had in the past. Thank GW for that.
Syria is re-examining its relationship with terrorist organizations inside of its borders. Thank GW for that.
Iraq isn't engaged in a campaign of ethnic genocide. Thank GW for that.
Iranian students are challenging old hardliners and they will be victorious in our lifetime. While you can't thank GW for that directly, I'm sure that the US is helping. further that change.
I'd say that's a lot more than a good start.
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From: Calgary Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpsartre12
There's a fine line between a leaving a vacuum and forcing a constitution and inherent political system onto people. I'm not sure I could draw that line, so I can only hope that it's being penciled in for now, rather than using a wide tipped felt marker. A political system must come from the populace, not from an outside force.
Well, we'd have 4 more guys there if wasn't for one of our two countries.
If you want to base commitment to Afghanistan on a percentage of military extension basis, the Canadian commitment is larger than that of the Americans.
On the point, is democracy, and the proposed constitution, AT THE POINT OF A GUN, truely democracy and a constitution?
It's also my understanding that the US/Coalition has largely given up on the fight against these warloards (due in large part to a shift of focus), and that the country has returned to widespread opium harvesting and remains hospitable to the terrorist element in large amounts of its territory.
Waxy
They were there to oust the Taliban, a terrorist organization. Should they have just left a void in its place like what happened in Cambodia?
Good thing that one of our two countries still has a couple of hundred thousand reasons in the region for Afghanistan to NOT backslide.
If you want to base commitment to Afghanistan on a percentage of military extension basis, the Canadian commitment is larger than that of the Americans.
On the point, is democracy, and the proposed constitution, AT THE POINT OF A GUN, truely democracy and a constitution?
It's also my understanding that the US/Coalition has largely given up on the fight against these warloards (due in large part to a shift of focus), and that the country has returned to widespread opium harvesting and remains hospitable to the terrorist element in large amounts of its territory.
Waxy
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From: Calgary Canada
Quite frankly, I think for many Canadians, it isn't even on the radar screen.
One of the things I marvel at on FTE is the number of people who served in the armed forces, I know of 2 GUYS, of all the people I've met in my life that were, and continue to be, actively involved in the armed forces. My cousin did infantry basic training as a reserve, but dropped out before he was stationed anywhere.
The military is just not high on the to do list for Canadians, especially western Canadians. Most of our military comes from Quebec, yes JP, frenchmen, ;( and from the maritime provinces. IMHO, the reason is the relatively poor economy of these regions.
I think Canadians in general take great pride in our role as peace keepers for the UN and NATO, but we don't have the desire to form and fund a large military machine.
In short, I think we're proud of our contribution to the peace keeping and rebuilding efforts in Afghanistan, I am anyway, but it is certainly not the focus of national attention.
Waxy
One of the things I marvel at on FTE is the number of people who served in the armed forces, I know of 2 GUYS, of all the people I've met in my life that were, and continue to be, actively involved in the armed forces. My cousin did infantry basic training as a reserve, but dropped out before he was stationed anywhere.
The military is just not high on the to do list for Canadians, especially western Canadians. Most of our military comes from Quebec, yes JP, frenchmen, ;( and from the maritime provinces. IMHO, the reason is the relatively poor economy of these regions.
I think Canadians in general take great pride in our role as peace keepers for the UN and NATO, but we don't have the desire to form and fund a large military machine.
In short, I think we're proud of our contribution to the peace keeping and rebuilding efforts in Afghanistan, I am anyway, but it is certainly not the focus of national attention.
Waxy
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From: Detroit Subs
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waxy
There's a fine line between a leaving a vacuum and forcing a constitution and inherent political system onto people. I'm not sure I could draw that line, so I can only hope that it's being penciled in for now, rather than using a wide tipped felt marker. A political system must come from the populace, not from an outside force.
I disagree. When you learned math, did you learn it from someone who knew nothing about math or did you learn from an external source, your teacher? How can a country that has lived under an oppressive regime for many decades, and has NEVER been a Democracy, begin to know what freedom is without help?
Well, we'd have 4 more guys there if wasn't for one of our two countries.
I'm assuming that was a cheap shot related to a friendly fiire incident. If my assumption is correct, I would expect better from you.
If you want to base commitment to Afghanistan on a percentage of military extension basis, the Canadian commitment is larger than that of the Americans.
Actually, I was commenting on the presence of large numbers of American troops in nearby Iraq that could step in if needed in Afghanistan.
On the point, is democracy, and the proposed constitution, AT THE POINT OF A GUN, truely democracy and a constitution?
Only time will tell. My crystal ball's malfunctioning today, sorry.
It's also my understanding that the US/Coalition has largely given up on the fight against these warloards (due in large part to a shift of focus), and that the country has returned to widespread opium harvesting and remains hospitable to the terrorist element in large amounts of its territory.
I guess it depends on where you get your news. From what I've read, the opposiite is true.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s_040127155955
There's a fine line between a leaving a vacuum and forcing a constitution and inherent political system onto people. I'm not sure I could draw that line, so I can only hope that it's being penciled in for now, rather than using a wide tipped felt marker. A political system must come from the populace, not from an outside force.
I disagree. When you learned math, did you learn it from someone who knew nothing about math or did you learn from an external source, your teacher? How can a country that has lived under an oppressive regime for many decades, and has NEVER been a Democracy, begin to know what freedom is without help?
Well, we'd have 4 more guys there if wasn't for one of our two countries.
I'm assuming that was a cheap shot related to a friendly fiire incident. If my assumption is correct, I would expect better from you.
If you want to base commitment to Afghanistan on a percentage of military extension basis, the Canadian commitment is larger than that of the Americans.
Actually, I was commenting on the presence of large numbers of American troops in nearby Iraq that could step in if needed in Afghanistan.
On the point, is democracy, and the proposed constitution, AT THE POINT OF A GUN, truely democracy and a constitution?
Only time will tell. My crystal ball's malfunctioning today, sorry.
It's also my understanding that the US/Coalition has largely given up on the fight against these warloards (due in large part to a shift of focus), and that the country has returned to widespread opium harvesting and remains hospitable to the terrorist element in large amounts of its territory.
I guess it depends on where you get your news. From what I've read, the opposiite is true.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s_040127155955
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From: Detroit Subs
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Waxy
...
The military is just not high on the to do list for Canadians, especially western Canadians. Most of our military comes from Quebec, yes JP, frenchmen, ;( and from the maritime provinces. IMHO, the reason is the relatively poor economy of these regions.
As much as you'd love for me to "take the bait", I won't speak ill of Canada's military. I know their history and it's a history to be proud of.
I think Canadians in general take great pride in our role as peace keepers for the UN and NATO, but we don't have the desire to form and fund a large military machine.
Nor could you or would you need to as long as the US is on your border.
In short, I think we're proud of our contribution to the peace keeping and rebuilding efforts in Afghanistan, I am anyway, but it is certainly not the focus of national attention.
Canada's presence in Afghanistan has been exceptional, IMHO.
Canada lost a soldier in Afghanistan today "A suicide bomber struck a convoy of the NATO-led security force in the capital Tuesday, killing a Canadian soldier and an Afghan civilian. The Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack.
Also wounded were three Canadian troops and eight civilians, officials said. "http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-01-27-afghanistan_x.htm
My condolences go out to the family and friends of this brave soldier.
...
The military is just not high on the to do list for Canadians, especially western Canadians. Most of our military comes from Quebec, yes JP, frenchmen, ;( and from the maritime provinces. IMHO, the reason is the relatively poor economy of these regions.
As much as you'd love for me to "take the bait", I won't speak ill of Canada's military. I know their history and it's a history to be proud of.
I think Canadians in general take great pride in our role as peace keepers for the UN and NATO, but we don't have the desire to form and fund a large military machine.
Nor could you or would you need to as long as the US is on your border.
In short, I think we're proud of our contribution to the peace keeping and rebuilding efforts in Afghanistan, I am anyway, but it is certainly not the focus of national attention.
Canada's presence in Afghanistan has been exceptional, IMHO.
Canada lost a soldier in Afghanistan today "A suicide bomber struck a convoy of the NATO-led security force in the capital Tuesday, killing a Canadian soldier and an Afghan civilian. The Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack.
Also wounded were three Canadian troops and eight civilians, officials said. "http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-01-27-afghanistan_x.htm
My condolences go out to the family and friends of this brave soldier.
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From: The County
waxy
I live close to Canada.I hear practically nothing on their views of the issues.They seem to be a passive group,in the sense that they don't say much on this issue.We have a lot of those Quebec frenchmen in my area.They can be very vocal at times.lol.My neighbors over across,are generally some of the friendlyest folks you would want to meet.aye.lol.when interacting with them,they don't talk much about policies,other than the PST and GST (?) is quite a burden on their economy.I was just currious.
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From: Calgary Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpsartre12
Do you think that a child will actually learn math, and value the skill, unless he has a desire, or feels the need to do so? Do you believe you can teach by force? I don't. In fact, I think using force prohibits any meaningful education by creating a defensive/ rebellious attitude in the pupil.
I don't question the desire of many, likely most, Afghanis to form a free and democratic society, IN SOME FORM OR ANTOHER. The problem is, if they feel that the system in place is not of their own choosing, and if it is not favoured by a large majority, it will make maintaining it nearly impossible when the guns leave.
If memory serves, it wasn't that long ago that you were agruing in favour of letting other countries find their own way in terms of their economies and gov'ts, stating that "no one gave the USA a helping hand". I believe we should help Afghanistan, but do it in a passive manner, help them to help themselves so to speak. Take no initiative until the general populace has done so first. Perhaps that is what we're doing, I just don't get that read on it.
I've learned to expect such comments from you JP. I only posted that in response to the cheap shot about only one of our two countries 'doing anything' in the area. Though I will admit I was more focused on the Afghanistan situation rather than Iraq, being as how that was the topic of the thread.
Wonderfully flippant, but it didn't address the question in any way.
I guess it does. I was basing my comments on internet articles and one in the Calgary Herald. Unfortunately, I don't have links.
Waxy
I disagree. When you learned math, did you learn it from someone who knew nothing about math or did you learn from an external source, your teacher? How can a country that has lived under an oppressive regime for many decades, and has NEVER been a Democracy, begin to know what freedom is without help?
I don't question the desire of many, likely most, Afghanis to form a free and democratic society, IN SOME FORM OR ANTOHER. The problem is, if they feel that the system in place is not of their own choosing, and if it is not favoured by a large majority, it will make maintaining it nearly impossible when the guns leave.
If memory serves, it wasn't that long ago that you were agruing in favour of letting other countries find their own way in terms of their economies and gov'ts, stating that "no one gave the USA a helping hand". I believe we should help Afghanistan, but do it in a passive manner, help them to help themselves so to speak. Take no initiative until the general populace has done so first. Perhaps that is what we're doing, I just don't get that read on it.
I'm assuming that was a cheap shot related to a friendly fire incident. If my assumption is correct, I would expect better from you.
Only time will tell. My crystal ball's malfunctioning today, sorry.
I guess it depends on where you get your news. From what I've read, the opposiite is true.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s_040127155955
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s_040127155955
Waxy
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From: Calgary Canada
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jpsartre12
I wasn't trying to get you to "take the bait", it was just a little jab based on our past posting history re french Canadians. A bit of an ironic twist, nothing more, so read into that what you will.
[b]
Exactly. I think the emergence of the USA as the world's only superpower has only served to make Canadians even more passive when it comes to military and foreign policy. I think our military should be better maintained, but when it comes right down to it, why? We could have no military budget at all and be in the same situation we are in right now. I'm certainly not ashamed of the fact that we take advantage of having the world's most powerful neighbor, in fact, I'm all for it, we'd be foolish not to. I'll gladly let the American taxpayer foot the bill for defending North America and use my tax dollars for other things. Like it not, that's the situation, and it's the situation BY CHOICE on both sides of the border.
As a Canadian, I don't feel the need to project Canadian ideals beyond our borders by military means, and while I'm sure I don't speak for everyone, I think that's a basic Canadian mindset.
I don't like hearing of Canadian casualties overseas, I can only hope that they will in fact make a difference, hopefully, by helping others to help themselves or defending those that can't defend themselves.
Waxy
As much as you'd love for me to "take the bait", I won't speak ill of Canada's military. I know their history and it's a history to be proud of.
[b]
Nor could you or would you need to as long as the US is on your border.[b]
As a Canadian, I don't feel the need to project Canadian ideals beyond our borders by military means, and while I'm sure I don't speak for everyone, I think that's a basic Canadian mindset.
I don't like hearing of Canadian casualties overseas, I can only hope that they will in fact make a difference, hopefully, by helping others to help themselves or defending those that can't defend themselves.
Waxy