its me again....

ok another question about my new toy... the seller said she put a 390 with 429 heads in it and all the head parts are new (she rattled off a list). first off I didnt know you could put heads off a different engine size on another (new factiod to store) and I know what the heads are, what they do basicly, ect.

what I dont know is WHY did she put 429 heads on a 390? I assume this has something to do with bigger valves ect, but for the sake of my curiousity and any one else who thinks they know but isnt sure, could you good folks explain to me the benifits/drawbacks of doing this type of refit.

she said she didnt put a high lift cams in, just the stock ones, whatever that means.

I learn about stuff after its broken so since head problems have never came up I havent learned yet. any heads that went bad on me before pretty much killed the whole motor in whatever aluminum block import thing I was using at the time, and for the cost of the repair another truck/car was easier to get.
Ok... I am all ears and taking notes guys. Teach me.

 

You need to get out your smoke mask...someone is blowing smoke up your behind... The 429 heads WILL not fit on a 390. I think they were trying to make a sale, and did not know what they were talking about. But it did sound good.

 

Man, that's funny stuff.
According to packrat_1954 you better get your smoke "shorts" on, too.

 

I didnt think that would work.... maybe she believes what they guy that did the work told her, the engine runs beautifully. I'll have to give her a call to ask her whats up with that...
Absolutely sure you cant do that huh? everyone else agree with 54? I never heard of anyone doing that, but I wasnt really sure.
it wasnt a selling point, she only mentioned it twice, and in passing. I dont take much notice of "what i dun to it" talk when I'm buying, I'm looking for stuff I can identify as problems...

like the other truck i loked at and it had grey oil (I know what does that, I didnit let they guy know) when I ask about it he said oh its dirty it needs changed...
on further grilling I found they blew a head gasket and flooded the engine with water, and after putting the new gaskets in the discovewred they couldnt get the oilpan off without lifting the engine almost out . so they left that "insignificant" amount of water in there. (they said "insagnificant", I knoew better)
then after it warmed up it lost oil pressure, he still attributed it to "thin oil". (and I also knoew better and didnt buy it)

well I will be asking about this one, I dont believe she was being dishonest, she showed me all the other ills on the thing, why lie about something (to someone she doesnt know) like this, If she knew it couldnt be done.... I'll let you know about it.

thanks.... you guys are too cool.

are the heads marked someplace? and the engine? I'd like to check the numbers and see whats what anyhow... it may not even be a 390!

 

The heads are going to have a number cast between the two inside exhaust ports. The block should have a number, I believe on the right front below the deck. FE engines, that is 352, 360, 390, etc. are unique in appearance. The head and a portion of the intake make up the surface that the valve cover bolts to.

 

2nd Mouse,

Are you sure she didn't say they put 428 heads on the engine?

Engines belong to groups in a sreies, or a family. There are an assortment of nominclatures. Many displacements were available, over time, in the different series/ families produced.

Within FoMoCo V8 category, since 1954 we have seen "Y" Blocks, wth 239, 272, 292, & 312 CID engines'.

Beginning in 1958 we saw FEs with 332, 352, 360, 390, 401, 406, 410, 427 & 428 CID engines.

In early 60s we saw Windsors introduced, using a new type of thinwall casting called Nodular casting Process. They were 221, 260, 289, 302 (aka 5.0L) & 351W engines. NASCAR uses the 351W engine in their Cup Series and Grand National Series cars.

In 1968 we saw the 385 series engines, which are 370, 429 & 460 CID. And later that same year we saw the Cleveland Group which started with Cleveland made Cyl heads on a 351W, then cleveland produced the 351C and when that began failing they made 351M/400 in the mid 70's. M=Modified where The Cleveland Plant went to 385 group bellhousing Bolt pattern because smaller Windsor Pattern had bellhousing failures & transmission damage
problems.

Obviously there are other series of engines. As a rule with the exception of Cleveland (aka Boss) heads on Boss 302 & Boss 351 Windsors & bellhousings of 351M/400 & 385s, parts do not easily swap between different series of engines.

Having said that, quite often parts from different displacement or "size" engine do swp easily & regularily within a series. In FE engines case, I believe there are only 6 or 7 different cylinder heads for all FE engines built between 1958 & 1976, including the SOHC & DOHC heads on those famous 427CID race engines.

I also believe the 428 which appeared in 66 T-Birds and went on to become 428 Super Cobra Jet in Mustangs & Torinos were only 390CID, Premium Fuel, Heads.

SOOoooo. . . . . . to answer your question fairly, I agree with packrat & instg8r63 about anybody putting 429 heads on an FE engine. . . .not even in their dreams, or hallucinations either.

BUT as for heads from different "size" (CID) engine within same engine series . . . . . . DO IT ALL THE TIME, usually for performance reasons more than as direct, repair, replacement tho'. Bottom line therefore is size/ CID is not the determining factor, engine series, group, or "family" is. And, as mentioned it's common within series of engines.

I'd give the lady the benifit of the doubt, Mouse. . .She probably wasn't lying to you of her own initiative, she may have been lied to 1st & just continued it unwittingly. After all, from what you've said so far, she was pretty up front w/ you & gave you a deal on truck too. I gathered rest of the deal was very much upfront and square business, right?

Also ALL FE engines are cast #352 on block sidewall in 5/8 to 3/4 inch numbers, and I do mean all. Even the 427 & 428 Blocks are cast #352. It does not necessarily reflect actual displacement of that block. It only identifies it as a 352 type FE suitable for any application from 332 CID to 428 CID dependent on machining & parts installed.

Consider also many, FEs use same bore, and change combustion chamber size by varying deck height/ piston features, or vary the stroke w/ different crank & rods and so forth. Thus some blocks are basis for several different CID/ displacement, FE ,Engines. It's all a very "Archimedian" exercise in displacement variables {FYI it was Archimedes, the Greek Mathematician who figured out the theory of displacement, about 4,500 years ago}.


Hope this doesn't put ya to sleep here. . . .

CIAO~ FBp

 

I'm with FBp on this one. We need the part numbers found between the center spark plugs.

 

You all know how it goes.

"428/429--what ever it takes..."

--Mike G

 

I talked to her, she said...
the guy who did the engine work said they were 429 heads, and she spacificly told me they were NOT 428's...
like all of us at times, I am inclined to believe she remembers this wrong. the heads were replaced with bigger heads the guy sold her, regaurdless of the numbers 428-429, SO I think she means 428n then and isnt remembering the conversation right...
here is another clue to chew on, she said a guy with a MUSTANG looked at the truck for just the engine but said he couldnt use the parts. Why, Idunno....
when it warms up a bit tomorrow I will go searching for those numbers.
OK WHY would you put bigger heads on this engine? what is gained and what is lost in doing this?
(is it a good thing or a bad thing they dun?)

but I did create a gallery today! So to better illistrate what I am quizzing you guys about...
go look, who in their right mind would cut this truck up for parts???
Take a look see and let me know if it was worth my 700 bucks.
(I didnt mention before in other posts but it has electric bucket seats.)

 

To reiterate, you cannot put 429 heads on an FE block. 428 heads will fit but they aren't anything like 429s.
Let us know when you get those #s.

 

2nd mouse,
428 heads aren't bigger. They probably did it for hardened seats.
428s were premium fuel engines, had 10:1+ compression ratios & came with hardened seats.

There isn't much difference between 352, 390GT/HO and 428SCJ heads if all 3 were combustion chamber up on a bench you can't tell a difference by looking at anything but numbers. FWIW, what is a 429 head anyway?

Heads are same for 460 and 429.... Same numbers & everything. So anybody saying they have "429" heads, either doesn't know very much, is running some game or lying intentionally. They're all 385 series heads, C9VE & D0VE & D1VE and so forth. Some are SVO or HO but they aren't specific to either engine by CID alone.

Reason a "Pony Person" isn't interested in truck 352 is FoMoCo only put FE's in Mustangs 4 years, and not too many in 1st year. They were the years of 1967, 68, 69 & 70 that's it.
1967 was 320 hp x 390cid only in "GT Packaged" or Shelby car.
1968 was 335hp 390, 390hp 427 & 335hp 428cid.
1969 was 320hp 390cid & 335hp 428cid.
1970 was 335hp 428cid, and that was it for FEs in Mustangs.
Cougars were exactly the same as Mustangs as far as engines.
No 352s, 401s 406s, 407s were ever in any Mustangs OEM.

The 385 series engines, 429 & 460s showed up in 69 too. They pretty much did FEs in as Fords performance engine. A regular fuel 429 engine made 360 hp while the premium fuel, Boss 429 engine was rated a meager 375hp, 'tho' it had almost 500lb/ft torque. (460s in Lincoln MarkIII and T-Birds made 390hp & had 510lb/ft torque, both using same heads, C9VE & D0VE.

As for the previous owner, She's been misled or lied to, & she's mistaken, flat wrong, or lying to you, which you don't have to tell her 'cause it doesn't matter anymore, except to upset her maybe. But what I/ we are saying is to you is flat out fact. The only way your truck could possibly have "429 heads" is if it has a 429 or 460 engine. From this discussion one thing is for sure, you better avoid doing business her mechanic!

 

well, it dont leak, it runs good and has more kick than any other truck I ever owned so I am happy whatever its got in it..


nah I aint dealing with any mechanic, none I ask so far had a clue what I was talking about....

I'll learn to do it myself if I dont know how... hopefully I wont need to crack it open anytime soon.

By that tie I'll have soaked up enough facts and figures to be ready to trial and error my way to sucess.
and this place is a great place to ask questions...


Thanks for the answers so far!
I suspect I'm just gettin warmed up..

speaking of warmed up do ALL these engines run like a sick bulldozer till they warm up???
sounds like a bi-plane with every other plug pulled out.
after 5 min it purrs like a kitten.
is that something you can tuen up and out or is it just the way they are?
starts easy... just runs like crap till it warms up.

 

Firstly, "ya done good"! This is a typical example of an old Ford that has been worked nearly to death. You can fix this truck up a little at a time and drive it for another 40 years. I'd tuck those wires up under the dash, fix the cold start/run business and drive it for six months. That will get your 700 bucks back in service and anything after that is gravy. Stick with us and the fellows over on the slick site and you will have no problem keeping this old Ford up and running.