Thanks for the interesting information. The one unexpected benefit of driving a diesel rig is I don't get tailgated anymore- biodiesel is supposed to smell a little better, so that's a slight negative.

 

Right now the price for commercial BD is higher. Hopefully in a few years when the information and demand are more than even the votes & people oil money can buy, we will have cheaper prices. I like these posts. More info changes some minds eventually. If you pay 20 to 35 K on your PU, fuel prices are of no concern. You will spend more money eating out 1 or 2 times a month than it takes to make a difference in the world and country you live in.

Be a part of the solution, no matter how small you think it is. BD is good for country and environment. Look into finding someone that makes their own from resteraunts (sp?). They will be happy to have someone bring oil in and convert for cost. Barter with them for some service you can do.

*** Don't try to convert yourself without proper safety gear, procedures, information, and equipment.

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paarrothead

"There is no question that there is net positive energy gain with biodiesel, that's the energy used to grow, fertilizer, process the oil crop including the energy needed to convert the crop oil to biodiesel. The energy out of biodiesel is around 3x the energy put into producing it."

If this statement were true, you are the first person to successfully violate the law of the conservation of energy. You are suggesting that 1+1=3. I applaud your enthusiasm for the product, but your physics is incorrect. Were you correct, we would convert all conventional power plants to consume your wonder product because, according to you, it produces more energy than it takes to produce. Pretty soon there would be a stockpile of your free energy source and we would have the energy equivalent of perpetual motion.

"According to the U. of Arkansas Pat Manning, 3.24 times as much energy is in biodiesel as the fuel, fertilizer and etc. used to raise the oilseed crop."

Great- But did he internalize all energy costs?

According to the US Department of Energy, the ratio is 3 to 1. (huge PDF file)
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2002/mccormick.pdf

Iowa State University claims a 3.8 to 1 net energy gain.
http://www.agmrc.org/energy/profile...eselprofile.pdf

Are you serious? This was written by the Agricultural marketing Research Center. Do you consider this to be an objective source? This is like citing an article written by OPEC on the virtues of hearting with oil.

As a farmer I am all for new markets. But establishing new markets at the cost to the country is exactly what created the farmer welfare state we all live off of today.

"I could post other references, but there's no question that using soy biodiesel is a net energy *gain* of around three. To directly refine the petroleum into diesel and burn it on the road would only produce 1/3 the energy as using it to produce biodiesel, and then using the biodiesel that's produced."

Interesting considering that, according to CAR & DRIVER and contrary to your assertions, diesel has more energy per vol. unit than bio diesel.

"And not to sound too much like an enviro-nut (or my waste-not-want-not grandma) but we dump and otherwise dispose of hundreds of millions of gallons of used vegetable oil every year. Recycling that oil into biodiesel instead of dumping it would be a national net energy gain."

This is the best application of bio-diesel- a fuel source that has already been manufactured and would otherwise be going to waste. I am all for burning the waste- Especially if someone else is burning it in their truck and lowering the price of my diesel.

"Along with a number of other PSD owners around here, I've been using biodiesel in my own truck and farm tractor for about a year and a half, since it became available at local pumps and I love the stuff. Truck runs smoother, quieter and strong. It's higher cetane makes my truck start fast like a gasser."

Nice try. The PSD needs to generate oil pressure before the injectors fire. At that point, and as long as it is not really cold, the fuel is injected and ignites. Any suggestion that your truck starts earlier is a total misrepresentation because no mater what you burn, the 7.3DIT requires the same time to generate enough oil pressure to operate the HEUI system. "Like a gasser"??? How about a reality check.

"Even though bio theoretically has an energy content halfway between #1 and #2 fuel, I've seen no difference in mileage or power vs. running straight #2."

Interesting, considering that we all know our mileage goes down when we have to go to number 1. Maybe your truck is a recreational vehicle and is not operated at full capacity for extended periods.

Again, the CAR & DRIVER article suggests that bio diesel has significantly less power. Just because you do not feel it, does not mean that there is no difference. I suspect that with 19,000 lbs of round bales behind me, I'll feel the difference with a fuel that releases less energy per gallon.

"I'm one of those **** PSD owners that only puts the best into my truck and if biodiesel didn't measure up, I wouldn't be using it, I'd be complaining about it instead."

But you won't really know until years from now when you can compare the lifetime of your engine to one that has run diesel. You have used it for 1.5 years. Hardly proof that this is miracle product we should all be using.

Bio diesel may be a good idea in some applications. I am not against it. I am only advocating an honest look at our energy future. No one should fill 'er p without being aware that no one really knows what the long term implications of bio diesel are for your engine. Kiss your warrenty good bye. Sure, it might be fine in some of the crude early VW and Mercedes engines - diesels that will burn anything, including a mixture of kerosene and engine oil- But the PSD (and now the new Bosch Cummins) are complex and highly tuned pieces of equipment. I'd be careful to let someone else do the long term testing first.

Lucky for us, it sounds like there are at least 2 people here willing to use their trucks as guinea pigs. Keep us updated.

-Mike

 

one thing I have noticed in the field is that bio diesel eats threw rubber fuel lines in the systemso you end up with leaks thoughout the fuel system

 

I think maybe you misunderstood his post. One of the knocks on ethanol production is that it actually takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than it creates in usable energy as a fuel. The articles in various publications refer to the fact that a gallon of biodiesel has 3 times the amount of usable energy than was needed to create it.

Obviously there is a cost in energy (refining, transportation, harvesting, etc.) for all of the fuels we use. Biodiesel is promising because it has a fairly significant positive energy balance. It also has some side benefits - cetane boost, lubricity, solvent characteristcs, etc. - that make it appealing as a potential fuel source.

 

I think you are correct, bio does have some positive characteristics. But I think we also have a responsibility to look at new sources of energy objectively. So far, I have not seen any independent analysis for the efficiency of converting petroleum into crop mass to then be converted into a petroleum substitute. Yes, the Ag people think that it is a good idea. And as a farmer, I am all for a new market.

But let's not pretend that bio diesel is the panacea we are all looking for. It seems to me that it is still too early to tell - We do not know how engines that were not designed for the fuel source will last and we do not have enough independent research on the subject of true energy costs of production.

-Mike

 

Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more.

I'm not sure where you're going here. If farming was simply exchanging petroleum for crop mass, noone would do any farming of any kind with machinery, because there'd be no way to generate a profit. Yes, petroleum products are used as fuels and herb/pesticides, but they are a fraction of the "energy" generated either in foodstuffs or fuels at the farmer level.

Another benefit of using crop-based fuels is to help reduce our dependence on foreign products. That does have value, even though it is hard to quantify.

 

Ive been running anywhere from b20 to b100 in all my trucks since 1994 and have no problems at all. oil stays cleaner longer in the higher mixes. dosnt smell as strong, not as much smoke. been very happy with it. paying 10 cents a gal more but getting 1-2 mpg better with it also

94 dodge 3500 cummins 12v 5 speed 412k mi original motor
97 gmc van 6.5 l turbo diesel almost 100k
97 F250 PSD 5 speed 141k

 

During a recent trip to Europe I noticed quite a few bio-diesel pumps, especially along the autobahn fueling stations. A mechanic I questioned told me that some modifications to the fuel system were required, before running on bio-diesel without problems. Other than that, he told me that it was working just fine. Seems that some types of fittings / fuel lines are affected by the bio-diesel and also that cold-start might be a bit of a problem.

Considering that more than 40% of all cars sold in Europe are diesels, this seems to be a growth industry based on Canola, etc.

Surely it is just a matter of time before the political pigs get their hands on this novel idea and start taxing it all to hell.