460 performance gains
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Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Oak Ridge
460 performance gains
Hey! I have a 77 F-150 with a 460 that I'm wanting to improve performance on. I know this gets thrown around alot so I'll get to the point. My motor is in excellent running condition and the only current mod has been a 1408 Edelbrock 750 w/electric choke. My plans are to add the Edelbrock 2167 Performer Plus cam with a 2166 Intake. The more that I read this link makes me wonder if I would be better suited to go with the cam and a good set of headers. My only problem with that is that I currently have an intake set up for an egr but It's blocked off. I still would want to replace the intake. My questions are should I stick with the edelbrock intake and cam or should I go cam and headers? If I go cam and headers, will an older model (non-egr) factory intake flow good enough? Like an early 429 or 460? My budget is limited so I'm trying to get the best bang for my buck. I've always understood that the main bottleneck on the late '70's 460's was from the factory cam. Also which brand of headers make for the easiest install. I tried the Flowtech brand and realized I would have to modify my frame for them to fit. I don't want to have to do any of that. Thanks for your help!
Posting Guru
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,222
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From: East Central Florida
Late 70's Prblm more than cam profile!
Actually it's cam timing more than the cam itself with the -2* retard built into timing set after 71. An earlier timing set cures that, but you still have flat or dished pistons, less efficient Heads too. All these can be upgraded [in terms of performance] by using parts for earlier 385 engines. Like D1VE or Earlier for example.
I just sold my aftermarket 4V intake, carb & headers and went back to a OEM Cast Iron Intake and Truck exhaust manifolds with 2.5 inch dia. true duals [w/ equalizer] all way back & straight out. It didn't change my ET's or trap speeds but It did get me nearly +2mpg average again. This is a D1VE engine w D1VE Heads & OEM intake. It also starts better & I think it runs better too.
FBp
I just sold my aftermarket 4V intake, carb & headers and went back to a OEM Cast Iron Intake and Truck exhaust manifolds with 2.5 inch dia. true duals [w/ equalizer] all way back & straight out. It didn't change my ET's or trap speeds but It did get me nearly +2mpg average again. This is a D1VE engine w D1VE Heads & OEM intake. It also starts better & I think it runs better too.
FBp
Last edited by FORDBOYpete; Dec 5, 2003 at 01:07 PM.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 3
From: Eustis FL
I would first like to know what you experienced by just adding the 750 cfm carb.
Next, the timing set is a cheap fix, and makes great sense. If you are into head swaps, find some D0VE C or C9's and bolt them right on, but first remove the little bump you find in each exhaust port for some increased flow. (die grinder)
Some recommend porting the D3VE heads the same way, but also getting some flat top pistons to pick up compression. that to me doesn't sound like a bargain, since you can get D0VE C heads for $300 or less, and boost compression from 8.0:1 to about 9.3:1. Simple mod.
Then, when you need more, get an aftermarket CJ intake manifold and enlarge your intake ports to match the gasket. You will get more top end power, but might lose velocity and thus low end power some. Depends on what you are doing. I just like a hauler and work truck that can race and win on the street against any new truck out there (which it almost does now in stock form!)
Make sure that whatever you do, headers are a must whan you want to increase power. That 750 cfm will give you more than enough cfm for up to $6000 worth of motor. LOL!
Mark
Next, the timing set is a cheap fix, and makes great sense. If you are into head swaps, find some D0VE C or C9's and bolt them right on, but first remove the little bump you find in each exhaust port for some increased flow. (die grinder)
Some recommend porting the D3VE heads the same way, but also getting some flat top pistons to pick up compression. that to me doesn't sound like a bargain, since you can get D0VE C heads for $300 or less, and boost compression from 8.0:1 to about 9.3:1. Simple mod.
Then, when you need more, get an aftermarket CJ intake manifold and enlarge your intake ports to match the gasket. You will get more top end power, but might lose velocity and thus low end power some. Depends on what you are doing. I just like a hauler and work truck that can race and win on the street against any new truck out there (which it almost does now in stock form!)
Make sure that whatever you do, headers are a must whan you want to increase power. That 750 cfm will give you more than enough cfm for up to $6000 worth of motor. LOL!
Mark
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Callahan US
Just remember guys, you pay for performance. Put flat tops to raise compression means putting plus or super unleaded in a truck that already gets bad mileage. If you use the truck for a daily driver like I do it gets expensive. Thats why when I rebuilt I bored 30 over and replaced with stock pistons, but installed comp cam, valve springs, and soon to put headers, intake, and new carb.
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
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From: Eustis FL
Well, I can't say anything for the 460, since I haven't installed the D0VE C's yet... But shouldn't the quench chamber help prevent ping caused by the extra compression?
I know I can run my 11:1 351C 4V M code factory original motor on pump gas without any hint of ping...
Mark
I know I can run my 11:1 351C 4V M code factory original motor on pump gas without any hint of ping...
Mark
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New User
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: Oak Ridge
I like the 750 carb. This truck isn't a daily driver (I use my 95 Cobra for that) but when I have driven to my work which is a 70 mile round trip, it has gotten fairly good gas mileage. What I am mainly trying to do is get some more bottom end torque from the motor. Although the heads aren't the best for performance, I have to think that the most cost effective performance gains will be found in the cam and the exhaust. Am I wrong about this?
Post Fiend
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,176
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From: Western Central NV
Just remember for everything you change, it changes something else. See Ford made the 460 the best it could be to meet laws and everyday driving. The way it was done in the race shops was the engine use was know then the Engineers sat down and went to work and we put together, installed and tested. they took the results and made any, changes, which sometimes were many. THE POINT IS. You have to know what you want from your engine. Many times I have called manufactues and get ideas. Life is much easier now that companies like Edelbrock have engineered matching parts manifolds, cam kits, heads, etc. all matched to work the best together. from my experience much better than mix and match.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 3
From: Eustis FL
A new cam should definately help. Maybe getting a longer exhaust duration grind will help with the exhaust port restriction associated with these heads? I think a call to Comp Cams or similar will get you the right cam for your needs... Just tell them what you want to do with the engine.
Of course, headers are always needed when you increase flow through a cam or other physical changes.
Mark
Of course, headers are always needed when you increase flow through a cam or other physical changes.
Mark
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Senior User
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Gig Harbor, WA
to fordboypete
A very interesting post! Which aftermarket intake and carb did you have? Do you notice much difference at 4000 ro 5000 rpm between the stock and aftermarket intake? Which heads, pistons etc. are on your engine?
I'm in the process of trying to build a "strong" street 460/C6 for my truck and I want to be prudent in my parts choice. It's easy to spend alot of money for little or no gain unless you're trying to turn 6500 rpm. What are your thoughts?
I'm in the process of trying to build a "strong" street 460/C6 for my truck and I want to be prudent in my parts choice. It's easy to spend alot of money for little or no gain unless you're trying to turn 6500 rpm. What are your thoughts?
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,364
Likes: 3
From: Eustis FL
From my research, I have understood that the D3 heads are fine to use with some mild porting work and getting rid of those exhaust port bumps, as long as you get some flat top pistons to increase your compression ratio. I think you should get pretty close to 10:1 with the larger combustion chamber size of the D3's without having to go to D0VE C's. These are good if you can get them cheap and don't wanna tear down the engine to intall the pistons, like having a limited budget. But if you are already into a build, forget the D0VE C's or C9's and fix up the D3 heads. I think you can get Edelbrock Performer intakes made for CJ engines, then blend your intake ports to them. Just remember that the closer you can build to 1971 specs, them closer you will get to the 500 lb-ft of torque, which I think would be quite nice for a 'mild' build!
Mark
Mark