US reaction to another terrorist attack?
Postmaster
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From: Calgary Canada
monckywrench,
I agree with your entire post, except for this sentence, and in particular, the word I underlined.
I see this over and over, this opinion that having wealth somehow makes you useless, unpatriotic, cowardly, etc...
IT'S BS.
How do you think the average welfare recipient, minimum wage earner just getting by, or even your average two income, middle class family struggling with debt would respond to a draft? Do you think they would all be model soldiers? Do you think the level of "unfit" recruits would be any different than those from "upper class" families?
Please explain.
Waxy
I agree with your entire post, except for this sentence, and in particular, the word I underlined.
Originally posted by monckywrench
A draft is emotionally appealing, but who REALLY thinks rich objectors wouldn't simply choose to get booted out by doing drugs, drinking, or slacking?
A draft is emotionally appealing, but who REALLY thinks rich objectors wouldn't simply choose to get booted out by doing drugs, drinking, or slacking?
IT'S BS.
How do you think the average welfare recipient, minimum wage earner just getting by, or even your average two income, middle class family struggling with debt would respond to a draft? Do you think they would all be model soldiers? Do you think the level of "unfit" recruits would be any different than those from "upper class" families?
Please explain.
Waxy
Gone but not forgotten.
Joined: Jul 2001
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quote: War is not a job for amateurs, and the performance the public expects (quick battlefield destruction of the enemy) is the result of thousands of man-years of training, experience, and cohesive effort.
A draft will damage the force, cost lives thereby, sap scarce resources, and accomplish nothing.
I must respectfully disagree. WW2 was won by "amateurs". When I was in the Army (as a draftee), the only difference between enlistees and draftees was the first two letters of their serial numbers, there was no difference in performance - we all did our jobs. In fact (and with no disrespect intended), I found that many of the "professionals" were people that had problems suceeding in the civilian arena and found refuge in the regimentation the service imposed on them.
Dono
A draft will damage the force, cost lives thereby, sap scarce resources, and accomplish nothing.
I must respectfully disagree. WW2 was won by "amateurs". When I was in the Army (as a draftee), the only difference between enlistees and draftees was the first two letters of their serial numbers, there was no difference in performance - we all did our jobs. In fact (and with no disrespect intended), I found that many of the "professionals" were people that had problems suceeding in the civilian arena and found refuge in the regimentation the service imposed on them.
Dono
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From: WA
Originally posted by stu37d
Recruiters are routinely making their quotas. They have minimum standards they (the potential recruit) have to meet. Ie, test scores, no felonies, etc. No, there are no lines beating down the doors to the recruiters, but we have good people who do alot of very tough work on a daily basis. The type of people that are willing to leave home for months at a time to make sure the job is done right- and safely.
And along this line of thinking, I believe the military has come way too far to even think about a draft. There is too much to lose.
Recruiters are routinely making their quotas. They have minimum standards they (the potential recruit) have to meet. Ie, test scores, no felonies, etc. No, there are no lines beating down the doors to the recruiters, but we have good people who do alot of very tough work on a daily basis. The type of people that are willing to leave home for months at a time to make sure the job is done right- and safely.
And along this line of thinking, I believe the military has come way too far to even think about a draft. There is too much to lose.
Yes, the recruiters are making their quotas-now. I have no intention of ever maligning recruiters. I'm saying that when many of those guys currently in the reserves are asked to re-up, they won't. Then the quotas are going to be unattainable. I am specifically talking about December 8, 1941. Recruiting offices were absolutely overrun with well qualified young men with the desire to risk their lives. They did a damn fine job. I haven't heard any stories of recruiters being overrun lately. Recruiters are still having to go out and RECRUIT. December 1941, they couldn't even reach the front door.
The military has little say in whether a draft is enacted. If there are inadequate young bodies, a draft will happen. As eloquently pointed out here, the amateurs do a pretty fine job. By the way, do you know the AVERAGE age of the wwII combat soldier? 26! How many 30 year olds have you spoken to who want to join the Marines? Do you wonder why?
Postmaster
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by kennyrrt
Couple points here:
Yes, the recruiters are making their quotas-now. I have no intention of ever maligning recruiters. I'm saying that when many of those guys currently in the reserves are asked to re-up, they won't. Then the quotas are going to be unattainable. I am specifically talking about December 8, 1941. Recruiting offices were absolutely overrun with well qualified young men with the desire to risk their lives. They did a damn fine job. I haven't heard any stories of recruiters being overrun lately. Recruiters are still having to go out and RECRUIT. December 1941, they couldn't even reach the front door.
The military has little say in whether a draft is enacted. If there are inadequate young bodies, a draft will happen. As eloquently pointed out here, the amateurs do a pretty fine job. By the way, do you know the AVERAGE age of the wwII combat soldier? 26! How many 30 year olds have you spoken to who want to join the Marines? Do you wonder why?
Couple points here:
Yes, the recruiters are making their quotas-now. I have no intention of ever maligning recruiters. I'm saying that when many of those guys currently in the reserves are asked to re-up, they won't. Then the quotas are going to be unattainable. I am specifically talking about December 8, 1941. Recruiting offices were absolutely overrun with well qualified young men with the desire to risk their lives. They did a damn fine job. I haven't heard any stories of recruiters being overrun lately. Recruiters are still having to go out and RECRUIT. December 1941, they couldn't even reach the front door.
The military has little say in whether a draft is enacted. If there are inadequate young bodies, a draft will happen. As eloquently pointed out here, the amateurs do a pretty fine job. By the way, do you know the AVERAGE age of the wwII combat soldier? 26! How many 30 year olds have you spoken to who want to join the Marines? Do you wonder why?
It has nothing to do with pay, benefits, etc...
It has everything to do with not believing strongly enough in what the US is doing to want to support the cause, AT ALL COST, ie WWII.
Waxy
Thread Starter
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Postmaster
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From: Nevada
Originally posted by Waxy
I don't, I'm pretty sure I know.
It has nothing to do with pay, benefits, etc...
It has everything to do with not believing strongly enough in what the US is doing to want to support the cause, AT ALL COST, ie WWII.
Waxy
I don't, I'm pretty sure I know.
It has nothing to do with pay, benefits, etc...
It has everything to do with not believing strongly enough in what the US is doing to want to support the cause, AT ALL COST, ie WWII.
Waxy
Senior User
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From: WA
Originally posted by sinjin
I believe the caliber of our military goes up during a draft not down.
I believe the caliber of our military goes up during a draft not down.
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From: Calgary Canada
Originally posted by kennyrrt
Ya' know, i kinda' agree. We were taught in the Corps to question authority, when the time was right (hold on boys! Remember "lawful orders"?). The draft drew in a lot of guys who questioned and improved. Actually, some of 'em even re-upped. Yeah, training all of 'em is a bother, but in the heat of the moment, sometimes the training is improved and better. Change is a painful process, even when it is good. Breaking the old molds is part of how we got to be the best.
Ya' know, i kinda' agree. We were taught in the Corps to question authority, when the time was right (hold on boys! Remember "lawful orders"?). The draft drew in a lot of guys who questioned and improved. Actually, some of 'em even re-upped. Yeah, training all of 'em is a bother, but in the heat of the moment, sometimes the training is improved and better. Change is a painful process, even when it is good. Breaking the old molds is part of how we got to be the best.
If I'm right, and I am catching his drift, I agree completely.
Waxy
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From: WA
Originally posted by Waxy
I may be wrong, but I suspect sinjin's assertion has nothing to do with the new recruits questioning authority or fearing punishment.
If I'm right, and I am catching his drift, I agree completely.
Waxy
I may be wrong, but I suspect sinjin's assertion has nothing to do with the new recruits questioning authority or fearing punishment.
If I'm right, and I am catching his drift, I agree completely.
Waxy
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,540
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From: Los Angeles safe and warm
Many quality individuals will not choose military service because better(more profitable) options are open to them.
Compulsory service brings a crossection of society which includes the very best as well as the dregs.
Compulsory service brings a crossection of society which includes the very best as well as the dregs.
Last edited by sinjin; Nov 12, 2003 at 04:56 PM.
Government Teat-sucker
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 9,748
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From: Virginia Beach
I would definitely be more on line with compulsory service than the draft.
On the other hand, isn't it more prudent to borrow as little money as possible to finish college? The military not only encourages off-duty education, they provide 100% tuition assistance right now. A hard charger could, quite literally, get a bachelor's degree in his first 4 year enlistment- barring any unforseen wars... Even still, if the enlistee can get one or two years of college knocked out and still have all of his GI Bill after he gets out, he is WAAAYY ahead of the game.
I say BS; anyone who truly desires a college education and has the intelligence and drive can work or borrow the required funds. .
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From: WA
Originally posted by georgedavila
It would be interesting to see how many are doing correspondence courses while in Iraq. Or the ratio of enlistments to completed degrees since the program started.
It would be interesting to see how many are doing correspondence courses while in Iraq. Or the ratio of enlistments to completed degrees since the program started.