It seems when these issues arise the blatant imbalances become more obvious. I am reminded of a young girl who was killed on a 4 wheeler right here in town last year. I realize this is a little different subject but we have an alarming number of young people getting hurt and killed on atvs because their STUPID parents just turn them loose on the thing. I am not against ATVs and I did not support the consent decree. But people need to wake up on this one. The machine is plastered with warning labels and seemingly inteligent adults break almost every warning when they just turn a juvenile loose on it, with passengers no less. To me it is akin to buying a full automatic rifle and handing it to a ten year old with a case of ammo and then go back in the house. If you need a cause to champion then this is a worthy one.

 

Just a small spanner in the discussion......from an Aussie perspective....

Smoking.....In July 2004 nobody will be allowed to smoke in any government complex - including the outside open-air areas.

Seatbelts.....Picture this - You're travelling down a freeway at night. Speed is around 70MPH. Slower traffic in front, so you change lanes to pass. Problem.....there is a stationary vehicle thirty feet in front of you....after a short skid -BANG!
People tell me that if it wasn't for an airbag and a seatbelt there is a good possibility that I wouldn't be here responding to this question. A broken knee-cap the only injury.
September was an unpleasant month!
Yes - freedom is important - but living to enjoy it should also come into consideration.

Paul.

 

Yes, common sense. I'm with that the whole way.

I strongly agree with willowbilly. Education and awareness. That's what we should focus on. The idea should not be to tell people what to do. Rather, offer the who/what/when/where/how/why of it all so that everyone is thoroughly versed and able to make a decision.

I smoke. Smart? No. I also try not to annoy people with second hand smoke. All I ask is that non-smokers extend the same courtesy to me. I wear a seatbelt. They work. But sometimes I just forget to put the darn thing on. Opps...cop havin a bad day pulls me over and throws a ticket in my face. Children should be a no brainer. Why wouldn't you make your child buckle up? I don't ride a cycle. If I did, I'd wear a helmet. I like my head the way it is. Same for kids.

As for health care/insurance costs...people to stupid things and get hurt...people don't do stupid things and get hurt. Those are the risks. I'll pay into pot to make sure we can keep on doing stupid and not so stupid things.

 

G'Day Patuca,

I smoke also - and no, its not a smart thing to do. But then again, I am aware of the possible risks as are most other smokers.
There was an interesting article published in the British Medical Journal not that long ago of a study conducted into the effects of passive smoking. The study commenced in 1959 - theme being 'husband smoker - wife (spouse) not.
The results have caused a stir here - as the conclusion was that the effects were negligible on the spouse. It did certainly confirm that active smoking was a problem.
The commencing line was "Have we been conned?"
The BMJ is a highly regarded source of accurate information.
Regards,

Paul.

 

paul,
i was not aware of this article...will have to look into it. seems like if it was started in 1959, it may actually be one of the first "long term" studies on second hand smoke completed. i think we all know that active smoking is harmful to one's health. but as for the severity of second hand smoke...well let's just say that i remain skeptical. political groups/groups with an agenda are constantly manipulating numbers in order to suit their needs. they rely on the impressionable minds of the scientifically illiterate to jump on board. driving through random towns here in wa...i've seen billboards stating something like 52000 deaths last year attributed to second hand smoke. ?????? just a few years ago a court justice in..i believe north carolina(no not a darling of the tobacco industry, he actually had history of firm anti-smoking views) threw out a study completed by the american lung association (??? not sure if i'm correct on that group) basically saying it had no scientific merit. and that study only proclaimed 3000 deaths per year. in actuality this study in question found the exact same results as the study you are refering to in the british medical journal. the affects of second hand smoke on another person are statistically negligible! but that's not what was published/printed for the public...oh yeh...the results of the study were published before the study was completed!!!!!!!! they published what they needed to print.

but thanks paul....i'm going to look into this article/study to learn more about it.

 

Sounds a lit Orwellian, doesn't it? Afterall, Big Brother is watching...
I was leaning a little toward the helmet choice laws, but then I dropped my bike- it's okay it was an old POS- at less than fifteen MPH! I was wearing the helmet and, danged if there weren't scratches all over the back of it! I didn't get hurt, short of a little (okay, ALOT) of stiffness, but I'll never ride again without one! Seatbelts are just something that you have to get used to. Once it is a habit, you hardly notice it. Smoking should juts be outlawed. "If cigarettes are outlawed, only oulaws will have cigarettes" LOL Just kidding, I like a cigar on occasion, but only smoke them outside.

I like the idea of regulations. We have to keep insurance costs down. And itreally isn't fair for the rest of us to pay for the idiots that turn themselves into road pizza and have to live on life support. Helmets and seatbelts are a necessary evil.

 

i think the more appropriate term would be the nannies are watching...lol.

i have taken a few defensive driving courses taught by instructors certified by the national safety council. result...my employer's and my own personal vehicle insurance costs dropped a little. yet another argument for educating not enforcing. why not make these types of courses more readily available to all? i agree that helmets and seatbelts are necessary evils...not sure they're evil to begin with..lol. i disagree though that laws making people use them are necessary.

perhaps i'm overly idealistic and have to much faith in people to take the initiative and sign up for these kinds of courses....

 

Why not make people in cars wear helmets and use a five point harness like Winstion cup drivers? They routinely survive 180mph crashes. And as far as motorcycles go some 90 percent of all injurys are to the lower part of the body. Maybe we need more protection laws for the legs. How many times have you seen someone one a rice rocket with a full face helmet wearing shorts and sandals. Ever seen what happens to a bare leg when you lay a bike down with your leg under it. Not pretty. I would never get on a bike without at least jeans and boots, usually leathers, but I chose not to wear a helmet because it limited my hearing and vision. I chose not to have any of my sensory imput impaired. I laid the bike down a couple times and never got a scratch. Once I slid on my back in the gravel for 50 feet or so. Iwas sure glad I had my leathers on. By the way, I never rode my quad without a helmet and on my snowmobile I always wear one when riding with anyone else. I go without when I am out alone pulling the freight sled.

 

I agree with you Willowbilly, on the point of not being able to logically protect against every eventuality. (Here it comes) BUT, I haven't taken care of very many folks who are on the public dole (read your money) for road rash, or even nasty cuts after motor crashes. I have transferred many yo-yo's with your same argument about helmets. If your helmet impairs your sensory perception, you need a different helmet.

Just like you, I speak from painful experience as a crash participant. I also speak as a people repair guy. Why do you wear your helmet when you are around others?

 

stu37d,

RE: "If cigarettes are outlawed, only outlaws will have cigarettes."

Absolutely priceless statement!!!!!
Hope you don't mind - but I'm going to have to use that one! L&Lof LOL

Paul

 

Makes me glad my downhill skiing enthusiasm has gone to cruiser status with age. I can foresee government regulated licensing standards matched to ski slope level of expertise. It’ll be right there on the imbedded microchip and the lift won’t accept you if the slope is above your licensed ability.

Perhaps I read too much science fiction years ago, when man going to the moon was only read in science fiction writing/movies or scientific papers, because I can see the above and more stringent regulation designed to cope with an ever-increasing requirement by governments to control actions of the citizenry in the very near future.

Let’s face it; I’m an old guy who lived through what I consider the best years to date in US history. Freedom was a given. Up to about 1975, you could leave any bar at closing time, drive drunk, get pulled over, and unless you couldn’t get out of the rig to stand up, told to be careful and not do it again on that cop’s beat. You could pretty well do what you wanted unless you hurt someone else through negligence and then you were wrong.

I can understand the reasoning in additional government control, though it galls me that fingernail clippers are now considered dangerous weapons and Ashcroft is a ****-type, but as with many people who have enjoyed something that’s a real pleasure, like almost total freedom from government interference in my life, I’m glad I have that experience to compare with contemporary conditions. And complain about that loss on this forum.

Almost every poster on this thread has brought them up one way or another, common sense and personal responsibility. Relics of the past and for a large part of the population that loss is creating greater demand for a government to take care of them. Insurance companies are pressed to the wall to turn a profit without raising rates farther beyond the reach of 40% of our country with no medical insurance and that other 60% is taken care of by tax money. Lawyers are increasing insurer costs to a point where doctors are leaving private practice rather than pay 35% of their gross for malpractice insurance. Things have gotten a little out of control, and congressional representation has been self-serving at best, so the government is going to step in and take care of those people who can’t take care of themselves, the majority.

 

georgedavila

many good points made here, but this was the best observation of all. I don't like the fact that lawyers can get settlements of $10 Million because you were too stupid to know that you can't stick a screwdriver in your eye, however, there shouldn't necessarily be limits set for serious things like the loss of a limb or the ability to work because of some big company's negligence. Maybe tort reform could be a thread of its own, huh?

I also like your thoughts on accountability and responsibility. Yes, people should be held accountable for their own stupidity, but what about the motorcycle rider who follows all the rules, wears all the proper safety gear, took the safety course and still gets blindsided by some moron who swears "I didn't even see him...?"

STU

 

The smoking ban is the best thing that happened to ca in the recent years!
Helmet laws, hell yea!
Seatbelts, Yea! An aquatience (sp) Killed 2 poeple in a wreck. They werent wearing seatbelts. He got 18 years. he was .10- whats that, 3 beers? Not justifing, But if they had the belts on, they would have lived.

 

I know of 3 different bikers that can't work anymore because of destroyed legs from a car hitting them. I actually came on one wreck where the guy had his leg tore off. I had one friend killed when an ambulance without its lights on ran a red and plastered him. Head injurys may cost taxpayers more but just because you don't have to care for crippled people doesn't mean it don't happen. How many people do you care for from other types of accidents? Could they have been spared with saftey devices?
I am not hacking on you or anything, I just think that it is unfair to ferret out the head injurys and ignore other serious injurys.
Also I wear my helmet on the ATV and snowmobile because you never know where another rider may come from. There are no roads and no traffic control so everyone is doing whatever they want at any speed. On the road bike I mostly just need to stay sober and pay attention to whats going on. You can't ride a bike like you drive a car or you will end up a statistic. Even if the light is green you are still rady for the car with the red to pull out. You learn to drive ahead of yourself and be ready for any possible situation where someone may pull out in front of you. I have said it before, it is what you have on the inside of your head that will keep you alive, not what you can strap on the outside.

 

A federal cap on the mental anguish side of legal settlements is around the corner.

Actual damages are normally placed on what it takes to repair or care for the injured individual. That's why 99% of drivers are under-insured. What's the liability minimum for vehicle insurance in most states? $25k or less? That's all the insurance company has to pay. Then the assets of the guilty party are taken, a farce with the Homestead Act and 'guidelines' for lifestyle. Bike insurance could get real pricey if enough expensive accidents happen.