Roller cams
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Cross-Country
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 57
Likes: 6
From: australia
Roller cams
On a 351w stock bottom end with a non roller block are roller cams, link bar lifters and roller rockers worth it if your on a with in reason penny pinching build?
By penny pinching I mean if its worth it I will get it.
By penny pinching I mean if its worth it I will get it.
FTE Legend
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 31,930
Likes: 1,499
From: Ottawa, Ontario
From a performance standpoint it's not worth it because either type of cam can deliver similar power and the flat tapper version costs less up front, but a roller cam is longer wearing with modern oils and doesn't require a break-in or oil additives.
FTE Legend
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 31,930
Likes: 1,499
From: Ottawa, Ontario
Yes all of these motors used stamped steel rockers.
Aftermarket heads won't necessarily need roller rockers but you will still need different rockers if the heads are not designed to use OEM style pedestal rockers.
Aftermarket heads won't necessarily need roller rockers but you will still need different rockers if the heads are not designed to use OEM style pedestal rockers.
Mountain Pass
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 249
Likes: 19
From: Mid Michigan
I get budget builds when spending $$$ on Heads and if you can save $300 on rockers it helps. I believe EllieMae94 is using Pedestal mount rockers on his AFR 165's and wwhite is using Pedestal rockers on his Edelbrock heads. I know AFR offers Pedestal or Stud mount but I believe they are the same. If you look at wwhites thread he asked about pedestal rockers. You can get pedestal rocker channels as well. Don't quote me on this but I believe you can use pedestal rockers instead of stud rockers on most of these heads if you pull the studs out. If you have a brand of heads in mind it's worth a e-mail to find out.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...er-advice.html
https://lmr.com/item/M6588A50/Ford-R...er-Channel-Kit
https://lmr.com/products/pedestal-vs-stud-mount-rockers
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...er-advice.html
https://lmr.com/item/M6588A50/Ford-R...er-Channel-Kit
https://lmr.com/products/pedestal-vs-stud-mount-rockers
Logistics Pro
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,197
Likes: 558
From: Central Wisconsin
Echoing Conanski, from a performance standpoint, not much difference.
But with a roller cam, there is virtually zero chance of wiping the cam out in the first 20 minutes of running (unless something was assembled incorrectly). In the last few years, there has been a plague of cams that do not survive passed the break in stage. I don't know if that is a fault of bad cam cores, heat treating, or lifters, but this is not an issue on a roller cam build. I wiped out a flat tappet cam last year, for the first time ever, on a brand 351w build. Break in lube added to the high zddp oil, properly primed everything, assembly lube on the cam and lifters, lifters were free in their bores. Comp agreed to replace the cam, but that doesn't give me back the time it takes to pull the motor, and clean the block back up to install the new cam. I won't gamble on flat tappet cams anymore.
But with a roller cam, there is virtually zero chance of wiping the cam out in the first 20 minutes of running (unless something was assembled incorrectly). In the last few years, there has been a plague of cams that do not survive passed the break in stage. I don't know if that is a fault of bad cam cores, heat treating, or lifters, but this is not an issue on a roller cam build. I wiped out a flat tappet cam last year, for the first time ever, on a brand 351w build. Break in lube added to the high zddp oil, properly primed everything, assembly lube on the cam and lifters, lifters were free in their bores. Comp agreed to replace the cam, but that doesn't give me back the time it takes to pull the motor, and clean the block back up to install the new cam. I won't gamble on flat tappet cams anymore.
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,710
Likes: 800
I get budget builds when spending $$$ on Heads and if you can save $300 on rockers it helps. I believe EllieMae94 is using Pedestal mount rockers on his AFR 165's and wwhite is using Pedestal rockers on his Edelbrock heads. I know AFR offers Pedestal or Stud mount but I believe they are the same. If you look at wwhites thread he asked about pedestal rockers. You can get pedestal rocker channels as well. Don't quote me on this but I believe you can use pedestal rockers instead of stud rockers on most of these heads if you pull the studs out. If you have a brand of heads in mind it's worth a e-mail to find out.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...er-advice.html
https://lmr.com/item/M6588A50/Ford-R...er-Channel-Kit
https://lmr.com/products/pedestal-vs-stud-mount-rockers
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...er-advice.html
https://lmr.com/item/M6588A50/Ford-R...er-Channel-Kit
https://lmr.com/products/pedestal-vs-stud-mount-rockers
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Thread Starter
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Cross-Country
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 57
Likes: 6
From: australia
Thanks for the replies, after a bit of research I like the sound of stud mount rockers but have noticed white and elliemay94 are using pedestal mount.
Am I missing something ?
Am I missing something ?
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Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,018
Likes: 210
From: SoCal
It all depends on what heads you get. Pedestal style heads may be more limited in selection. They may also be limited in how aggressive a cam you can use. They use 3/8" fine thread bolts to hold down the rocker and pedestal, and are limited to 25 lbs-ft of torque. Most of the pedestal style aftermarket roller rockers use something that looks like a steel pipe for the pedestal. One end of it has a round cutout for the rocker's trunion, and I've read that applying too much torque there can split the pedestal.
On the other hand, you can install 7/16" studs on a stud head for really aggressive cams with monstrous lifts and really heavy springs to match.
I got a deal on a set of Edelbrock pedestal style heads, so that's what I went with. Pictures start from here:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...ZEOUVmWjRfSFl3
On the other hand, you can install 7/16" studs on a stud head for really aggressive cams with monstrous lifts and really heavy springs to match.
I got a deal on a set of Edelbrock pedestal style heads, so that's what I went with. Pictures start from here:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...ZEOUVmWjRfSFl3
Thread Starter
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Cross-Country
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 57
Likes: 6
From: australia
If I go with a roller cam and link bar lifters in a 1990 351 block do I have to use a small base circle cam?
OK just read somewhere that you can use any cam as long as you use linkbar lifters. So confusing when your learning.
OK just read somewhere that you can use any cam as long as you use linkbar lifters. So confusing when your learning.
Last edited by Tony ray; Apr 5, 2021 at 11:26 PM. Reason: more info
Lead Driver
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 7,018
Likes: 210
From: SoCal
Oh you're right! I was thinking about the wrong engine. So the cam limitation of pedestal rockers is lower than I thought. So standard screw-in studs are 3/8", and the super radical version is the 7/16".
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,710
Likes: 800
If you have the tie bar style lifters you should use a full size cam.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,573
Likes: 855
From another thread:
My factory roller 351w has a base circle size of: 1.440"
- Standard Cam Base Circle is: 1.340
- Reduced Camshaft Base Circle Diameter = 1.260"
- CompCam: "the max base circle is about 1.354"
When I bought my camshaft, I did not know about the different base circle sizes, and caused me some grief, as I could not figure out what spec was incorrect, and why my rockers were way out of spec.
I thought I had the wrong lifters, but ended up being smaller base circle, needed longer push rods.
- Standard Cam Base Circle is: 1.340
- Reduced Camshaft Base Circle Diameter = 1.260"
- CompCam: "the max base circle is about 1.354"
When I bought my camshaft, I did not know about the different base circle sizes, and caused me some grief, as I could not figure out what spec was incorrect, and why my rockers were way out of spec.
I thought I had the wrong lifters, but ended up being smaller base circle, needed longer push rods.
Here is a quote from Edelbrock with 60399 heads:
with pedestal mount rocker arms (Will not accept rail rockers).
Also, I think with a small circle cam and link bar lifters, is safer, in that the lifters will sit in the hole lower, if using a non-roller block.
Non-roller blocks lifter bores are not as tall as a roller block. You don't want your lifters popping out of the bores!
So, with that statement, that should guide you to what cam circle size you should get.
Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,710
Likes: 800
When I put a compcam in a roller 351w block, the stock cam base circle is 'large', and compcam standard size is smaller than the stock 1994 351w roller cam, but not a small circle.
From another thread:
Check the head manufacturer for what type of rockers work.
Here is a quote from Edelbrock with 60399 heads:
With machining the heads, you could probably adapt stud mounted rockers.
Also, I think with a small circle cam and link bar lifters, is safer, in that the lifters will sit in the hole lower, if using a non-roller block.
Non-roller blocks lifter bores are not as tall as a roller block. You don't want your lifters popping out of the bores!
So, with that statement, that should guide you to what cam circle size you should get.
From another thread:
Check the head manufacturer for what type of rockers work.
Here is a quote from Edelbrock with 60399 heads:
With machining the heads, you could probably adapt stud mounted rockers.
Also, I think with a small circle cam and link bar lifters, is safer, in that the lifters will sit in the hole lower, if using a non-roller block.
Non-roller blocks lifter bores are not as tall as a roller block. You don't want your lifters popping out of the bores!
So, with that statement, that should guide you to what cam circle size you should get.