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Alright that makes sense about the pitman arm length now. I'm going to see him tomorrow I'll have a closer look.
Before I ground the stops there was never any air between the knuckle and the stop.
About the U-joint binding thats kind of my point. On my friends '01 axle his stops are unground and are 1.75" in length. Mine were 2.25". That leads me to believe something is different in the design between the two years. But my understanding was the axles and steering from 99-04 are the same.
Yes, I understand.I'm trying to see what else is stopping your knuckle from turning further after you ground the stop down.
That is my understanding as well aside from the change from D50 to D60. Having said that, These trucks have a lot of minor engineering changes even within the same model year.
Take pictures of both your axles please. Try to get a measuring tape on where you see differences.
I went to my buddies shop with the 01 PSD that I've been studying. Everything appears to be identical. I took pictures of his front axle and my front axle. I did not use a level to measure the axles exactly so if my measurements are off from manufacturer's length I am sorry. Both of our pitman arms measure 7" however I only took a picture of his measurement. See pictures below.
The first 2 pictures are of the 01 PSD 4x4
My 02 PSD
.
The 3rd picture is of my 02 PSD 4x4 Buddies 01 front end 55" from king pin to king pin Buddies 01 pitman arm roughly 7" from center to center My 02 PSD
Your right we have an e99 gasser and it has a horrible turning radious 1.5 turns just like yours, it has a plow package i believe as the thing rides stiff af. This is an F350 DRW extended cab dually Cab & Chassi truck for what is worth.
Your right we have an e99 gasser and it has a horrible turning radious 1.5 turns just like yours, it has a plow package i believe as the thing rides stiff af. This is an F350 DRW extended cab dually Cab & Chassi truck for what is worth.
Well this is about the most depressing thing I'll read all day. You're saying I'm stuck with a turd of a truck that needs to make 17 point u-turns for life
In all seriousness at least I can start wrapping my head around this is just how it is. Thanks for the info, I would have not thout of it being a plow option truck.
truck.
EDIT: my truck was born in a cold weather mid-eastern state so I guess the plow option makes sense.
The OP failed to mention both of these trucks appear to be lifted.
One difference I notice is the angle of the track bar and link from pitman arm to axle are different angles. Ideally, these would be parallel - one of the trucks is not.
Lifting one of these trucks more than about 3” requires addressing steering components. The further from horizontal the steering link is - the more steering is compromised. Often, you’ll see a modified (‘dropped’) pitman arm and modified brackets for the track bar.
One of my friends recently had his axleshafts clearanced to accommodate a significantly tighter turning angle. He hasn’t swapped that (‘08? F450) axle on the truck yet - so my question below about steering gear is for him too.
Ok, since I need a new steering gear after 460k miles - I’m interested in upgrades. What box, pitman arm, etc do I want?
Just remembered this thread and how we don't have a definitive answer yet. @Y2KW57 seems to know the minutiae of these trucks. Any thoughts?
Originally Posted by FordTruckNoob
Also, if you have 4x4 the stop is there to prevent you from over-articulating your u-joint.
You already provided the definitive answer for the steering stops... to prevent from over articulating the U joints.
A key enabler of tighter turning in the Super 60 is the much larger knuckles, which created more space between the pair of ball joints defining the king pin angle, and in that larger space a larger U joint cross could be fitted, which could survive a larger angle of wheel cut, which when combined with widening the axle to accommodate the inboard half of the tire at maximum wheel cut, resulted in a better turning radius.
A lot of people seem to think that coil springs are the key enabler of tighter turning, because that is what they experience in coil sprung Super Duties. They seem to think that the leaf springs are in the way of the inboard half of the tires when turned to full lock, but that is a nonsensical correlation of coincidental changes to the front end, since the radius arms of Ford's coil sprung suspensions occupy the exact same space that leaf springs did, underneath and inline with the frame. In fact, the 2005-2009 Chevy and GMC 4500/5500 were leaf sprung, and had a whopping 57 degree angle of wheel cut, and could turn around on half a dime... compared to the 99-04 4x4 wheel cut of approximately 21 degrees, which is the least amount of wheel cut in the industry, apart from one model of Marmon Harrinton converter axle used in the early 90's era F-SuperDuty chassis cab aftermarket 4x4 conversions.
We need bigger front axle half shaft Ujoints to turn better, and then the steering gear and linkage to match. But our knuckles are not big enough for the larger cross, so we are stuck unless we change axles altogether. Since the axles where the half shaft articulation was improved also happened to have the center casting and tube weldments designed for coils springs, we are faced with the choice of converting for tighter turning and risking the onset of death wobble, or making 17 point turns when we need to, but otherwise steering rock steady straight over pot holes and expansion joints with the confidence of a straight front axle held in place by leaf springs.
Or buying a new Chevy 4500/5500, which has a solid front axle, steady Eddy leaf springs, and a 42 to 47 degree wheel cut. I'd love to port one of those front axles over to my 2000, as International spec'd the pumpkin on the "correct" side (an old Chevy vs Ford joke, for those too young to remember). But the Chevy frame is 3.5" narrower upfront than the Ford, so even if the spring perches were cut off and rewelded, and even if the caster angle could be set right, and even if the steering linkage under the leaf spring could be solved with some time of reconfiguration, and even if a steering gear ratio and new steering gear could be obtained... there still might be too much lateral angle on the front drive shaft, despite the double cardan joint. And then there is the expense. I would have to make quite a few turns to justify it.
But if you think turning a 156" wheel base F-250/350 is a PIA, try turning a 200" wheelbase crew cab with an 11.5 foot bed around with a 20 degree wheel cut. THAT takes planning. And carrying a map, to find one's way out of neighborhoods when not being able to make a U turn on the main thoroughfare.
You asked for my thoughts... so that's what I digressed to. Sorry for rambling.
Now for the "minutia" requested...
99-04 STEERING GEAR CHANGES... yes, the 2005 up has a different steering gear, but there were also 3 different steering gears used between the early 99 and 2004, as follows:
Prior to 3/99: F7UZ-3504-GB
With 8 splines between blocked teeth on the sector shaft
Excursion F-250 F-350
4x2* and 4x4
*Note: Some 4x2 models continued to use this steering gear after 3/99
After 3/99 but before 5/31/02: YC3Z-3504-AB
With 9 splines between blocked teeth on the sector shaft
Excursion F-250 F-350 F-450 F-550
4x2* and 4x4
*Note: Some 4x2 models continued to use the 8 spline F7UZ-3504-GB steering gear during the earlier part of this period
Additional note: One clue to consider is whether the front gross axle weight rating is 4,200 lbs or less. In these cases, the F7UZ-GB may have a different shaft assembly. Not likely to be a concern for most folks here.
After 5/31/02, but before (some date mid-2004 when Ford Job 1'd the 2005 models) 2C3Z-3504-AA
You already provided the definitive answer for the steering stops... to prevent from over articulating the U joints.
A key enabler of tighter turning in the Super 60 is the much larger knuckles, which created more space between the pair of ball joints defining the king pin angle, and in that larger space a larger U joint cross could be fitted, which could survive a larger angle of wheel cut, which when combined with widening the axle to accommodate the inboard half of the tire at maximum wheel cut, resulted in a better turning radius.
A lot of people seem to think that coil springs are the key enabler of tighter turning, because that is what they experience in coil sprung Super Duties. They seem to think that the leaf springs are in the way of the inboard half of the tires when turned to full lock, but that is a nonsensical correlation of coincidental changes to the front end, since the radius arms of Ford's coil sprung suspensions occupy the exact same space that leaf springs did, underneath and inline with the frame. In fact, the 2005-2009 Chevy and GMC 4500/5500 were leaf sprung, and had a whopping 57 degree angle of wheel cut, and could turn around on half a dime... compared to the 99-04 4x4 wheel cut of approximately 21 degrees, which is the least amount of wheel cut in the industry, apart from one model of Marmon Harrinton converter axle used in the early 90's era F-SuperDuty chassis cab aftermarket 4x4 conversions.
We need bigger front axle half shaft Ujoints to turn better, and then the steering gear and linkage to match. But our knuckles are not big enough for the larger cross, so we are stuck unless we change axles altogether. Since the axles where the half shaft articulation was improved also happened to have the center casting and tube weldments designed for coils springs, we are faced with the choice of converting for tighter turning and risking the onset of death wobble, or making 17 point turns when we need to, but otherwise steering rock steady straight over pot holes and expansion joints with the confidence of a straight front axle held in place by leaf springs.
Or buying a new Chevy 4500/5500, which has a solid front axle, steady Eddy leaf springs, and a 42 to 47 degree wheel cut. I'd love to port one of those front axles over to my 2000, as International spec'd the pumpkin on the "correct" side (an old Chevy vs Ford joke, for those too young to remember). But the Chevy frame is 3.5" narrower upfront than the Ford, so even if the spring perches were cut off and rewelded, and even if the caster angle could be set right, and even if the steering linkage under the leaf spring could be solved with some time of reconfiguration, and even if a steering gear ratio and new steering gear could be obtained... there still might be too much lateral angle on the front drive shaft, despite the double cardan joint. And then there is the expense. I would have to make quite a few turns to justify it.
But if you think turning a 156" wheel base F-250/350 is a PIA, try turning a 200" wheelbase crew cab with an 11.5 foot bed around with a 20 degree wheel cut. THAT takes planning. And carrying a map, to find one's way out of neighborhoods when not being able to make a U turn on the main thoroughfare.
You asked for my thoughts... so that's what I digressed to. Sorry for rambling.
Now for the "minutia" requested...
99-04 STEERING GEAR CHANGES... yes, the 2005 up has a different steering gear, but there were also 3 different steering gears used between the early 99 and 2004, as follows:
Prior to 3/99: F7UZ-3504-GB
With 8 splines between blocked teeth on the sector shaft
Excursion F-250 F-350
4x2* and 4x4
*Note: Some 4x2 models continued to use this steering gear after 3/99
After 3/99 but before 5/31/02: YC3Z-3504-AB
With 9 splines between blocked teeth on the sector shaft
Excursion F-250 F-350 F-450 F-550
4x2* and 4x4
*Note: Some 4x2 models continued to use the 8 spline F7UZ-3504-GB steering gear during the earlier part of this period
Additional note: One clue to consider is whether the front gross axle weight rating is 4,200 lbs or less. In these cases, the F7UZ-GB may have a different shaft assembly. Not likely to be a concern for most folks here.
After 5/31/02, but before (some date mid-2004 when Ford Job 1'd the 2005 models) 2C3Z-3504-AA
A superbly detailed and thoughtful response. Thank you sir. I tried to rep you but I'm in rep jail. Someone hit him up for me please.
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