Vvt system issue
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Vvt system issue
Greetings everyone. I'm new here and I've never posted on one of these before but I'm kind of stumped. I have a 05 f250 super duty 5.4l 3v. About a year ago it started spitting and sputtering with a flashing CEL and left me sit. Took to shop and he changed both vvt selenoids and problem fixed. Not 2 months later same thing but didn't leave me sit. Took it back to same guy and said one of the vvt was bad. Ok...warranted the part and paid the labor. Problem fixed. All good for like 6 months did same thing. Had since then became familiar with these complicated vvt systems and decided to fix myself. The codes contained a few cylinders misfire plus multiple cylinders misfiring but they were all on drivers side so I took it upon myself to do the vvt selenoid on that side and it fixed it. All good for like another month and a half and then same issue. I replaced the other side selenoid and took for a drive. Seemed to be good. Next day right back to running like spit. I can't imagine all these selenoids keep going bad. Ive been driving it like this for a while now but we don't go far from home anymore. It seems ok when it's cold but soon as it warms up it's a turd. Awful jerking and every so often CEL will flash and it runs even worse when it is. Can't ever pull out unless absolutely no cars coming because it couldn't get out of its own way. I'm so frustrated. It had new cats on both sides like 2 yrs. ago. I always change my oil every 3,000 5w20. I feel like I want to change the vvt selenoids again because every time it has been that and now I've seen several go bad now but this is crazy to me. They're both new and fresh oil. It seems that everytime I change a selenoid or put fresh oil it either fixes it for a short time or seems to help a bit but quite quickly gets worse and worse again. I have no phaser or chain noises. Plugs changed like 2 yrs back. I feel like its something in the vvt system such as a blocked passage or something with the timing system but I don't know where to begin again. There is also codes about bank 2 over retarded and still misfire codes and a bank 2 sensor 2 code. If anyone has any suggestions I'd greatly appreciate it and I can pull all the exact codes if needed. Thank u
Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 177
Likes: 20
From: Belpre, OH
Just my input, based on the work I've done on these over the last few years (including a dozen or so timing jobs):
- replacing the solenoids is likely just a waste of time and money at this point; as the problem likely is further downstream.
- the only real downstream component is the cam phaser itself
- the phasers themselves usually don't generate a lot of noise when they fail, but will cause a lot of the issues you've described. Essentially, with the phasers not working properly, the cams are out of time - causing the misfires.
- the bank over retarded code is usually a good indication as well that the phasers aren't doing their thing.
If it were to roll into my shop, I would usually recommend the following work be done (keep in mind, this is a recommendation - the choice is ultimately yours)
- Replace entire timing set; including tensioners and guides; it's usually just a matter of time before they become an issue
- Replace both phasers; you're already at that point
- Replace oil pump; it's 5 more bolts once you're that far in
- based on inspection; sparkplugs
- water pump is an option, as you're right there
Parts list:
- timing set (with the iron tensioners, not plastic)
- cam phasers
- oil pump
- timing cover gasket set
- valve cover gasket set
- intake manifold gasket set (removal makes the job considerably easier)
- oil/filter
Optional:
- spark plugs
- water pump
- coolant
I've gotten pretty good at them, can usually have everything done in one day - as long as the plugs cooperate... If they haven't been done before, it may induce large amounts of cursing. That's why most mechanics have invested in all the special tools for removal....
- replacing the solenoids is likely just a waste of time and money at this point; as the problem likely is further downstream.
- the only real downstream component is the cam phaser itself
- the phasers themselves usually don't generate a lot of noise when they fail, but will cause a lot of the issues you've described. Essentially, with the phasers not working properly, the cams are out of time - causing the misfires.
- the bank over retarded code is usually a good indication as well that the phasers aren't doing their thing.
If it were to roll into my shop, I would usually recommend the following work be done (keep in mind, this is a recommendation - the choice is ultimately yours)
- Replace entire timing set; including tensioners and guides; it's usually just a matter of time before they become an issue
- Replace both phasers; you're already at that point
- Replace oil pump; it's 5 more bolts once you're that far in
- based on inspection; sparkplugs
- water pump is an option, as you're right there
Parts list:
- timing set (with the iron tensioners, not plastic)
- cam phasers
- oil pump
- timing cover gasket set
- valve cover gasket set
- intake manifold gasket set (removal makes the job considerably easier)
- oil/filter
Optional:
- spark plugs
- water pump
- coolant
I've gotten pretty good at them, can usually have everything done in one day - as long as the plugs cooperate... If they haven't been done before, it may induce large amounts of cursing. That's why most mechanics have invested in all the special tools for removal....
Last edited by jimzdat; Oct 7, 2019 at 12:58 PM. Reason: clarification
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New User
Joined: Oct 2019
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Just my input, based on the work I've done on these over the last few years (including a dozen or so timing jobs):
- replacing the solenoids is likely just a waste of time and money at this point; as the problem likely is further downstream.
- the only real downstream component is the cam phaser itself
- the phasers themselves usually don't generate a lot of noise when they fail, but will cause a lot of the issues you've described. Essentially, with the phasers not working properly, the cams are out of time - causing the misfires.
- the bank over retarded code is usually a good indication as well that the phasers aren't doing their thing.
If it were to roll into my shop, I would usually recommend the following work be done (keep in mind, this is a recommendation - the choice is ultimately yours)
- Replace entire timing set; including tensioners and guides; it's usually just a matter of time before they become an issue
- Replace both phasers; you're already at that point
- Replace oil pump; it's 5 more bolts once you're that far in
- based on inspection; sparkplugs
- water pump is an option, as you're right there
Parts list:
- timing set (with the iron tensioners, not plastic)
- cam phasers
- oil pump
- timing cover gasket set
- valve cover gasket set
- intake manifold gasket set (removal makes the job considerably easier)
- oil/filter
Optional:
- spark plugs
- water pump
- coolant
I've gotten pretty good at them, can usually have everything done in one day - as long as the plugs cooperate... If they haven't been done before, it may induce large amounts of cursing. That's why most mechanics have invested in all the special tools for removal....
- replacing the solenoids is likely just a waste of time and money at this point; as the problem likely is further downstream.
- the only real downstream component is the cam phaser itself
- the phasers themselves usually don't generate a lot of noise when they fail, but will cause a lot of the issues you've described. Essentially, with the phasers not working properly, the cams are out of time - causing the misfires.
- the bank over retarded code is usually a good indication as well that the phasers aren't doing their thing.
If it were to roll into my shop, I would usually recommend the following work be done (keep in mind, this is a recommendation - the choice is ultimately yours)
- Replace entire timing set; including tensioners and guides; it's usually just a matter of time before they become an issue
- Replace both phasers; you're already at that point
- Replace oil pump; it's 5 more bolts once you're that far in
- based on inspection; sparkplugs
- water pump is an option, as you're right there
Parts list:
- timing set (with the iron tensioners, not plastic)
- cam phasers
- oil pump
- timing cover gasket set
- valve cover gasket set
- intake manifold gasket set (removal makes the job considerably easier)
- oil/filter
Optional:
- spark plugs
- water pump
- coolant
I've gotten pretty good at them, can usually have everything done in one day - as long as the plugs cooperate... If they haven't been done before, it may induce large amounts of cursing. That's why most mechanics have invested in all the special tools for removal....
Mountain Pass
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 177
Likes: 20
From: Belpre, OH
Since the phasers simply use ported oil to change the cam timing internally, there's really not a lot of noise associated with them in particular - I suppose if they were to get sloppy enough, you'd hear them shifting as the valve springs load the cam? Most of the time, the noises heard are associated with the failure of the chain guides; which allows the chains to slap around inside the timing cover - given enough time, it will do its darndest to chew through the cover.
The VVT system is fairly simple, mechanically - the solenoid valves port oil through the front cam bearing area into the center hub of the cam phaser; adjusting the cam timing. If they aren't porting oil to the phaser, it just dumps it into the timing cover. Same oil pressure actuates the cam chain tensioners; there are ports on the back of the tensioner to facilitate that. I actually rebuilt a 4.6 not too long ago, and someone had put the tensioners on the wrong side and it ended up starving the passenger side cam - bad things occur in that case...
I have absolutely zero experience with the lockouts; the anecdotal evidence I've seen says that there will be some drivability issues; particularly at the low end. I'd much rather invest in making the system work right. Not sure if any sort of tuner is needed to eliminate CEL issues - which may be an inspection concern depending on where you live.
There are those that insist that OEM parts is the only way to go; but I have had pretty good luck with using aftermarket parts. The key is to stick with reputable aftermarket parts; not just the cheapest amazon parts to be found.
I use Cloyes timing components whenever possible - they have kits available with both the plastic and iron tensioners.
Of the dozen or so times I've done this, I've had precisely one failure out of the box with the Dorman phasers - and it was replaced under warranty (I had to eat a bit of labor to make it right for the customer, but that was my choice to make it right).
Oil pumps, stick to Melling or Sealed Power
If you try and save money and go with the cheapo ebay kits, you're playing with fire in my opinion.
As far as balancing costs with a new engine; only your wallet can answer that question...
- If you buy a used engine, chances are it would need all that work anyway; not good economical sense
- A reman engine will have all the new parts and a warranty, but will incur additional costs with the job - plan on possibly replacing exhaust manifolds (cracking), new plugs, intake gaskets, water pump, etc. - plus the labor involved. Just for reference; my cost (commercial account at O'Reilly) for a reman long block is just shy of $3700 - and that's before any shop markup. I'm a small independent; I would mark it up around 30%, then charge ya $450 in labor - plus all the other components. So I threw a quick parts list together - for a new engine, installed, with the above noted components added to it; my cost estimate to you would be just shy of $6k for parts/tax/labor.
By comparison, doing the complete timing job as I noted above averages between $1600-1800 for parts/tax/labor; depending on the specific parts needed and if the solenoids need done.
Please keep in mind that those are my prices, at a independent shop in BFE Ohio - depending on your location, things will vary greatly.
Good luck, and hopefully you can find a shop willing to help you get it right soon - I recently had a potential customer come in with similar complaints; he told me the local dealer would only offer a complete replacement engine to the tune of $8k+ - so he was seeking answers
The VVT system is fairly simple, mechanically - the solenoid valves port oil through the front cam bearing area into the center hub of the cam phaser; adjusting the cam timing. If they aren't porting oil to the phaser, it just dumps it into the timing cover. Same oil pressure actuates the cam chain tensioners; there are ports on the back of the tensioner to facilitate that. I actually rebuilt a 4.6 not too long ago, and someone had put the tensioners on the wrong side and it ended up starving the passenger side cam - bad things occur in that case...
I have absolutely zero experience with the lockouts; the anecdotal evidence I've seen says that there will be some drivability issues; particularly at the low end. I'd much rather invest in making the system work right. Not sure if any sort of tuner is needed to eliminate CEL issues - which may be an inspection concern depending on where you live.
There are those that insist that OEM parts is the only way to go; but I have had pretty good luck with using aftermarket parts. The key is to stick with reputable aftermarket parts; not just the cheapest amazon parts to be found.
I use Cloyes timing components whenever possible - they have kits available with both the plastic and iron tensioners.
Of the dozen or so times I've done this, I've had precisely one failure out of the box with the Dorman phasers - and it was replaced under warranty (I had to eat a bit of labor to make it right for the customer, but that was my choice to make it right).
Oil pumps, stick to Melling or Sealed Power
If you try and save money and go with the cheapo ebay kits, you're playing with fire in my opinion.
As far as balancing costs with a new engine; only your wallet can answer that question...
- If you buy a used engine, chances are it would need all that work anyway; not good economical sense
- A reman engine will have all the new parts and a warranty, but will incur additional costs with the job - plan on possibly replacing exhaust manifolds (cracking), new plugs, intake gaskets, water pump, etc. - plus the labor involved. Just for reference; my cost (commercial account at O'Reilly) for a reman long block is just shy of $3700 - and that's before any shop markup. I'm a small independent; I would mark it up around 30%, then charge ya $450 in labor - plus all the other components. So I threw a quick parts list together - for a new engine, installed, with the above noted components added to it; my cost estimate to you would be just shy of $6k for parts/tax/labor.
By comparison, doing the complete timing job as I noted above averages between $1600-1800 for parts/tax/labor; depending on the specific parts needed and if the solenoids need done.
Please keep in mind that those are my prices, at a independent shop in BFE Ohio - depending on your location, things will vary greatly.
Good luck, and hopefully you can find a shop willing to help you get it right soon - I recently had a potential customer come in with similar complaints; he told me the local dealer would only offer a complete replacement engine to the tune of $8k+ - so he was seeking answers
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Thanks a million for your input. I had done countless hours of research and hadn't found everything that I felt I was looking for but your insight has given me a pretty solid road to follow. I've taken care of the engine so I would expect to get alot of life out of it yet so I'm going to get the timing kit and a melling oil pump. Btw I'm not going to get the cheapo kit. I did see one that had it all....all the timing components plus oil pump and water pump for under $200. Pretty crazy when you can't even buy 1 phaser from ford for that price. Its kind of aggravating to know that these people sell this stuff knowing its junk but I've done enough mechanical work in my life to know better. There's alot of things I don't buy from advance and auto zone alike. Again, thank you much for your input and knowledge. This thing has been a thorn in my side for quite some time now and I was hesitant to take it to ford only because what I've read leads me to believe that Ford going to either tell me I need a new engine or not finely diagnose the actual cause of the problem so I've just decided to get a quality kit and upgrade the oil pump and pull my oil pan as well. The only other thing is thorough inspection of rollers and lash adjusters before I'd want to deal it all back up. Thanks again! You've made my headache subside some lol.
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