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My personal experience suggests a good look at your existing steel lines, especially the one over the rear diff. I replaced all of mine with stainless steel.
The P.O. had rear steel lines replaced in 2011/25k miles ago, but I will check them. Plan to replace the fronts with Crown SS lines.
Another for Frozen Rotors + Hawk pads. I've used them on two Land Rovers and now our Ex, and they've been excellent. One side (and less important) benefit I've seen that others have not mentioned- they don't corrode as quickly as other brands we've used. Also- their customer service is absolutely next level.
I had my front end replaced in July 2017. Didn't have time to do it myself so I paid my local guy to do it. He insisted on new rotors for a vehicle of this size saying that if they were simply turned, they'd just warp again shortly down the road. Well, less than 10k later and they're warped anyways........so much for his logic. I don't recall what parts he used, but I'm assuming he got them from the NAPA parts store next door. Charged me $400+ for the new rotors, pads, and install. My plan is to have them turned for now, then swap them out just before next year's camping season.
I had my front end replaced in July 2017. Didn't have time to do it myself so I paid my local guy to do it. He insisted on new rotors for a vehicle of this size saying that if they were simply turned, they'd just warp again shortly down the road. Well, less than 10k later and they're warped anyways........so much for his logic. I don't recall what parts he used, but I'm assuming he got them from the NAPA parts store next door. Charged me $400+ for the new rotors, pads, and install. My plan is to have them turned for now, then swap them out just before next year's camping season.
they are not “warped” they have variations in thickness or excessive run out and for it to show up in 10k miles points to either very crappy quality rotors but more likely a bad bearing, flange, corrosion on the wheel or hub mating surface, improperly torqued nuts ect, Find the cause or your next rotor will do the same.
I don't visit here often, but if you don't mind reading the thoughts of someone who worked in the automotive brake industry for 30 years, who helped develop the '99 to '08 brakes, and whose signature was on the reports that went to my company, Ford, and the other brake hardware manufacturers involved.
As far as rotors, I always use assembly line rotors on my own vehicles. In fact, I still have a stash of the TRW assembly line rotors for my '03 F-350. They were manufactured with the tightest controls for the quality you are going to find, post 2001 manufacture. As Pirate has noted, the most important quality is the machined runout and thickness variation between the rubbing surfaces. Others are the consistency of the alloy and heat control out of the mold.
We did extensive testing of "Cryo" rotors a few years after the turn of the century, what it gains you is a harder surface. The only thing it gains you. That helps with rotor wearing causing thickness variation, but that issue is really due to installing rotors with high runout. It's why the brake industry has tried to teach about indexing rotors to the hub, or when turning used rotors to use an on-car lathe. It's why early launch Excursions all had their rotors turned as they came off the assembly line using Pro-Cut lathes before TRW could tighten up their rotor manufacturing specs.
So cryo rotors let you be lazy on install, but with a hardened surface you need to run a higher friction brake material, which is why frozen rotors guys always pair the rotors with higher friction materials like Hawk LTS.
The biggest issue in this area with the Excursion brakes and the also the same years F-350 is the OE friction material was a little too low in friction and it was low in abrasion. Ford really wanted it as it saved their tail in another application.
Low in abrasion sounds good and it produces less brake dust. But the biggest issue for consumer vehicles, not commercial use, is the brake-off distance is way higher than the brake-on time. What this means is during brake applications there isn't enough abrasion to correct the rotors from the slight rotor wear that occurs brake-off running down the highway. And this occurs more so with a higher installed runout of the rotors, something that is rarely checked. Except by me, every time. The kicker about this, a higher abrasive friction material like the Hawk LTS corrects this issue, and would with non-cryo rotors. It's not absolute, dial in the wrong runout and you can still have the issue. Proof? The '05+ pickups are supplied with a higher abrasion friction material from the same company that supplied the early brake design, both with reports signed by me. No cryo rotors and a huge reduction in the brake pulsation warranty.
Unless something has changed in recent years, Ford contracted with Federal-Mogul to supply all of the Motorcraft service line rotors. While our rotors were made by TRW for the assembly line, the current over the counter rotor was not since ~2005. While initially cast and machined at the Federal-Mogul Wagner plant in Berkeley, Mo, per Ford's request foundry and machining was moved to China. But Ford's specifications for manufacture (casting and machining tolerance) was tightened to Ford's OE specs. There may be other aftermarket rotors that are just as good, but since we used to test our competitor's products too (OE and Aftermarket), that's going to be a tough hurdle to find. Pricing doesn't necessarily allow it.
You can make good parts in China, but as a non-controlling partner, you better have a team of QC personnel on site to watch every detail. And then you have the problem of the guy next door making your parts. Or even here at home.
Same design brake calipers are not cast up all over the place in the service industry. In the case of the Excursions, Akebono was the caliper supplier, they held the patent and Ford's contract state Ford is the only customer. So for the service industry if you are getting a rebuilt caliper, its a core or salvaged part. This has been true across all product lines, but lately, there has been an exception as Raybestos has been apparently buying up rights and having new castings made. I've used up my stash of new, not rebuilt calipers for my truck.
Why did I collect a stash of new calipers when I could years ago? The biggest issue with rebuilt calipers is the corrosion pitting in the housings. Yes, you can remove the rust, but you can't fill in the pits. And these pits reside in the boot and sealing o-ring grooves. You can clear the rust, install new rubber parts, but the sealing surfaces are compromised compared to the new state. And rebuilders don't bother to look carefully at this issue. More clearance allows for quicker rust buildup, which influences piston roll back and causes more pad to rotor contract during brake-off events. Yep, back to that.
Single stop braking events are all about rotor mass when it comes to thermal issues. There is no time thermal dissipation to the air like repeated deceleration events over a short time. So I don't use anything like holes or slots in my rotors. I want mass. Holes and slots are important when the friction material degasses when the organic components of the friction material either cure more or decompose. I prefer to buy quality friction material that doesn't have this trait, so I don't have to bake the friction material with repeated stops when its first installed, and I don't have to worry about brake fade from decomposing organics. Usually, you can get a good feel for these in the forums, better braking especially with a trailer that never is doing its share of the work. I used to like Performance Friction Z pads on my truck, our competitor because I really didn't care for Ford choice in this matter. PF's offering has changed, so now I use Hawk LTS. But there are others just as good, there are attributes of LTS I don't care for, so next trial will be elsewhere.
Flexible brake hoses come in different designs, different pressure rating or expansion rate if you will. In this regard its just like hydraulic hoses, different pressure ratings. With the very long hoses used on the Superdutys, Ford went with the higher rated, the lower expansion rated hose. But with any rubber product, repeated expansion and aging will compromise the part. Off the line, they had about the same expansion rating as the aftermarket Teflon/SS hose. I have no problem with either, but with Ford's Motorcraft service revolution, I can't state the over the counter Motorcraft hoses are OE or Federal-Mogul sourced. However 10 years out they need to be changed. And immediately changed if they ever suspend a caliper.
I am looking to upgrade my brakes for towing as well, are the motorcraft reman calipers much higher quality also there is a different PT# for 04-05 with the 6.0 what is the difference? as far as new R1 concepts makes brand new front and rears as well as brake world (not sure if new), anyone used these? brakeworld
Akebono designed and manufactured the calipers for the pickups from 99-04. TRW made Ford a great deal as they were PO'd that Akebono took the business away from them and has manufactured the calipers since 2005. The Excursion was not going to have a long life so there was no development of a new frame/suspension, the Akebono calipers were retained. it some ways the Akebono caliper design was better, it just never got the chance to grow a bigger piston bore.
Maybe because it was a quick read, but I didn't see where the calipers were listed as new castings. Maybe I'm too jaded from aftermarket writers.
Are Ford remans better? They should be if Ford kept the reigns tight as far as what the rubber parts were used and any tolerances for pistons, piston bore and seal grooves surfaces. At this point in time it's anyone guess. 2018 brake part dollars and about half of what 2000 brake part dollars were.
My originals lasted 133K. I did get Motorcraft (China) replacements the first time... quality wasn't as I expected as they had to be cut 2x (once on vehicle) in 7K miles. Cryo's no issues in 25K. My experience is my guide in such matters.
Items that have a "service" life or are expected to wear out, are subject to varying conditions. My results varied.
Not every vendor who offers a Cryo treated rotor Starts with the same blank rotor, Rather then just saying “Cryo” it would be helpful to include the brand or even part number of the rotor you had cryo’ed. That way people don’t just assume ever rotor that has been Cryo treated is awesome because the market place is full of junk including Cryo rotors.
I can say for the current state of affairs of the Motorcraft replacement rotors, but I can say for my own company, and there were more then a dozen others, after signing the invoices for over a half million dollars in researching the rotor issue, getting the rotor indexed for lowest runout is the most effective way to reduce the problem. I do it every time personally and since ~2000 we never have had a pulsation problems on any of the family cars.
And as Pirate said, a bad rotor cyro'd is just a bad cryo'd rotor. Some of the aftermarket rotors that are out there have a hard time meeting the 0.0015" total indicated runout service spec, but at least when you have one close you can index it in. The assembly line spec for the Excursion was 0.0010" TIR.
12-16-2018, 08:20 PM
