[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 28-Aug-01 AT 09:32 AM (EST)[/font][p]what the hell was that, man you have to much time on you hands Of course you probably just copied it and pasted and you may not understand what you pasted. If you are an "expert" and i suspect you are. Please enlighten me on the chemical process that happens to change r134a to hydrofluoric acid? Does it react with the oil? does it react with h2o? or is this like the other guy saying that if you smoke and it goes through the filter it changes to cyanide. pure magic. Do you know what hydrofluoric acid is and what it is used for? It has been described as one of the most deadly substance known to man, how convienent!........I find it frightening that all of your info comes from a website that certifies ac techs (money connection). I will look for a doom and gloom source for r134a from another unbiased place and if i find it i will report back here. Oh yeah I will check the can from the kit and see if it says it is explosive.

 

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 28-Aug-01 AT 10:30 AM (EST)[/font][p]this web site is even more alarming than jud sent me to.


http://www.greenpeace.org/~ozone/mtb/

I have to admit, that this info was pretty scary until i noticed that i was actually in a green peace website ( i had did a google search and linked into it with out reading the domain name )
Green peace can make the manufacture of Infant's formula turn into something horrible bad. I am still searching for an unbiased opinion of R134a conversition kit.

I would also like to apologize to jud...did not mean to come across like i was attacking your knowledge, just looking for a second opinion.

 

It is the direct effect of water reacting with the florc carbon refigerant. This is why removing water is so important.
Only prob is the type oil needed for the R134 collects so much water even before you add it that it is almost impossible to get a dry system.

Heat or ultraviolet light plus cloro floro carbon refigerants make phosgene that straight out of the occupational med test but not a prob as inside system.

The hydrofloric acid inside the system is a big prob.

I personally like the hydrocarbon mixes (ie propane and isobutane) Must be iso with fork at end not plane N-butane.
These are flamable when exposed to air in proper concentration but have no sig reactions with H2O and are compatable with oil alreqady in an R12 system.

Best web site I found (yes that is where the long post was from) and they have many people with many different opions

http://aircondition.com/wwwboard/alternative/

 

Hydrofloric acid is a weak acid common uses include metal cleaning glass etching and polishing.
Manafuctured by reaction of sulfuric acid with calcium floride in a heated kiln. Evolves as a gas and condenses as a liquid. It is used as an intermediate in the production florocarbons, aluminum floride and cryolite. Also used as a gasoline alkylation catylist and as an intermediate in the production of uranium hexafluoride.
NIOSH estimates 189,000 workers are potentially exposed.

It is real nasty to the skin as it readly penetrates intact skin dissociating free hydrogen and free fluoride ions. The fluoride ion is responsible for most of the tissue distruction. The typical signs and symptoms of HF injury usually delayed for several hours after contact exspecially in typical weaker 15-30% concentration exposures. When symptoms emerge there is deep throbing excurciating pain. However at this stage there is often no visable signs of injury.
Then the area becomes erythematous and swollen and as tissue injury progresses pallor and blistering of the skin occours followed by tissue necrosis. Because floride ions have a marked affinity for bone extensive deminerilization may occour. HF burns cause marked tissue destruction including loss of parts of or entire digits.

definitive treatment is aimed at deactivation of floride ion via calcium magnesium or quatanery amonia solution.
You inject calcium gluconate solution.
Also if burn is extensive the fluroide ions can tie up anough Ca to produce hypoclaemia affecting the heart first seen as prolonged QT interval on EKG.

Bottom line you only have to see one of the normal ultimately fingers and you never forget.

So I can see why one would call HF evil stuff although it does have its uses.

Bottom line is if you use 134 and have water in system you get HF which eats away at inside of system.

 

[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 28-Aug-01 AT 11:10 AM (EST)[/font][p]how high can the temprature get inside the a/c compressor ? oh and isn't r12 just as "nasty" ?

 

Want to see how hot grab the compresor output line lightly so the burn is not so bad.

The difference is the oil the mineral oil compatable with R12 does not grab and hold water like the oil required for R134 both R12 or 134 will react with water (hotter just makes it happen faster) but a good vacuum on a R12 system removes the water pretty well (because of the oil type) where as a good vacuum on a system with 134 compatable oil has no real chance to remove the water.

Otherwise excep being a smaller molecule (leaking thru the hoses more)and running at higher pressures r123 ain't a whole lot different then R12. The key is the oil and without a compatable oil your compressor cannot live long.

Which is why I choose the hydrocarbons as the are compatable with the low water affinity type oil used in R12 system. Plus no Floride to react with water. Plus bigger molecule leaks less and propane isobutane mix can duplicate R12 pressures the old R12 system was designed to work with.

 

I was wondering about the temp because in my research, I came across the process of how r134a can produce HF acid and one of the critical points were that the temp had to be above 270 degrees Celsius(518 F), so I was wondering if it got that hot.

Anyway Thanks for the insightful posts, I knew if I hammered at it enough I could get some people to give me facts, Instead of the usual reaction "I AM AN EXPERT AND I SAY IT IS SO" replies. I am still not convinced that my r134a conversion is bad. But like I said thank you for the info.

 

No such heat requirement with long term moisture exposure.
But there was an air force paper on 134 sprayed on a fire and inhalation of HF (maybe that is where your temp info came from)

Here the prob is slow cronic conversion not acute conversion in a flame

Take a look at this concerning how this kills a condenser.

http://www.truckair.com/3s.pdf