5.4 3v runs rough when cold
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From: Central IL
5.4 3v runs rough when cold
A little background. I recently bought a 2011 Ford Expedition EL from my local Ford dealer. It has the 5.4L 3v obviously.
The truck has 113k miles on it. At the time of the purchase the dealer agreed to repair a bunch of stuff on it. It got two new catalytic converters (plugged), all new O2 sensors, new vacuum lines (IWE was grinding), new transmission bulkhead sleeve (seal was leaking) and a tune up with new plugs and one new coil on cylinder 3 as well as a new steering rack (leaking). It was throwing I believe an 0303 code. After all those repairs it was still not running right and throwing a code so they replaced all the bank 1 plugs again.
No more codes as of now but it still has a very rough idle when the engine is cold soaked. Also it really stumbles, bucks and surges at light throttle when cold. All of that pretty much disappears when the engine has been ran a while and is up to temp.
If I am cruising around 40-45mph with my foot very light on the throttle (around 1000-1250 rpms) I can feel a constant, rhythmic bucking, almost like it's missing. It goes away at higher rpms. Local Ford dealer had a tech drive the truck with me in the passenger seat and he recommended new tires and struts all around. ???
The tires on it suck but they're not worn and it probably could use new shocks/struts but I feel like it's an engine or maybe even transmission problem. MAF sensor *looks* fine. All of the injectors seem to be nice and snug fitting. All connectors on COPs and injectors are tight.
I don't hear any of the knocking noises that I have heard on a bunch of videos related to cam phasers and all the drivetrain component problems.
I have an ELM327 scanner and the FORscan software. Image is from my drive to work the other morning. Cruise set at 60mph. Engine was up to temp. Any techs or wiser than me folks willing to offer a point in the right direction? Additional PIDs to monitor?
I haven't done much as far as tear into the engine to check more vacuum lines or the throttle body yet. It's my daily driver and with a bunch of kids I don't get a ton of time to go tinker but I plan on checking that stuff ASAP.
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From: Central IL
Unplugged both VCT solenoids today and all symptoms went away. Drives like a dream now.
New solenoids and valve cover gaskets ordered.
Hopefully it's just the solenoids and no damage has occurred to the phasers or timing chain/guide/tensioners.
New solenoids and valve cover gaskets ordered.
Hopefully it's just the solenoids and no damage has occurred to the phasers or timing chain/guide/tensioners.
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New User
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From: Central IL
Contemplating biting the bullet and pulling the front cover to replace the timing chain, guides, tensioners, phasers and a new oil pump while I have the valve covers off.
What are the odds those need/will need replaced if the solenoids are having issues?
Anyone experienced with this?
What are the odds those need/will need replaced if the solenoids are having issues?
Anyone experienced with this?
Cargo Master
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,087
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From: Central Florida
You have some good diagnostic clues here. I wish I could help but I don’t know anything about cam phasers and whatnot.
Someone on this forum can help. I’m very surprised no one has chimed in yet. Great people here.
Ill PM Krewat. He knows this kind of stuff.
Someone on this forum can help. I’m very surprised no one has chimed in yet. Great people here.
Ill PM Krewat. He knows this kind of stuff.
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From: Long Island USA
It does indeed look like you might have a vacuum leak. Notice the fuel trims. Bank 1 is trying to lean out, and bank 2 looks like it's trying to go rich (if the + and - are rich and lean, I don't remember). Either way, the computer is trying to adjust the fuel mix much differently in each bank.
A vacuum leak on the bank 2 side would cause it to try to richen up the mix on that side. Or there's too MUCH fuel on bank 1.
HOWEVER, I see you disconnected the solenoids and it runs perfect now. That might mean one of the solenoids was bad, but the computer would normally throw a code for that if the cam is not timed according to what it wants. You might have just covered the problem with a band-aid because you put the PCM into open loop (check engine light is on, right?). Check the fuel trims with the solenoids disconnected, I bet they are the same now
A vacuum leak on the bank 2 side would cause it to try to richen up the mix on that side. Or there's too MUCH fuel on bank 1.
HOWEVER, I see you disconnected the solenoids and it runs perfect now. That might mean one of the solenoids was bad, but the computer would normally throw a code for that if the cam is not timed according to what it wants. You might have just covered the problem with a band-aid because you put the PCM into open loop (check engine light is on, right?). Check the fuel trims with the solenoids disconnected, I bet they are the same now
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From: Central IL
It does indeed look like you might have a vacuum leak. Notice the fuel trims. Bank 1 is trying to lean out, and bank 2 looks like it's trying to go rich (if the + and - are rich and lean, I don't remember). Either way, the computer is trying to adjust the fuel mix much differently in each bank.
A vacuum leak on the bank 2 side would cause it to try to richen up the mix on that side. Or there's too MUCH fuel on bank 1.
HOWEVER, I see you disconnected the solenoids and it runs perfect now. That might mean one of the solenoids was bad, but the computer would normally throw a code for that if the cam is not timed according to what it wants. You might have just covered the problem with a band-aid because you put the PCM into open loop (check engine light is on, right?). Check the fuel trims with the solenoids disconnected, I bet they are the same now
A vacuum leak on the bank 2 side would cause it to try to richen up the mix on that side. Or there's too MUCH fuel on bank 1.
HOWEVER, I see you disconnected the solenoids and it runs perfect now. That might mean one of the solenoids was bad, but the computer would normally throw a code for that if the cam is not timed according to what it wants. You might have just covered the problem with a band-aid because you put the PCM into open loop (check engine light is on, right?). Check the fuel trims with the solenoids disconnected, I bet they are the same now
Yes the CEL is on now. I will check the fuel trims now that they are disconnected. I did go ahead and order new solenoids and will put them in the first chance I get a few hours to do it.
It did have a vacuum leak when I bought it causing the IWEs to grind. Those lines were all replaced. I will go over the rest of the lines today and check for any visible cracks.
Still trying to decide if I want to shell out the money to replace the all the timing chain components. There is a little bit of a tick, especially when I accelerate, it's not too loud, nothing that would make me think there was a major problem. Was there before the solenoids disconnected also.
Last edited by DRock558; May 20, 2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Add
FTE Leadership Emeritus
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From: Long Island USA
A valve train tick usually doesn't get louder when you accelerate. Might be an exhaust manifold leak.
I have a rule when I do stuff like this - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it's already broke, don't go fixing other things in the meantime. Figure out what the problem is, get it running 100% perfect, and then make the decision to do the timing components.
I have a rule when I do stuff like this - if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And if it's already broke, don't go fixing other things in the meantime. Figure out what the problem is, get it running 100% perfect, and then make the decision to do the timing components.
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From: Central IL
Fuel trims did even out quite a bit. One picture is same conditions as before. Flat level road with cruise set at 60. Other one is idling in my driveway.
Didn't get a chance to look at vacuum lines yesterday, was stuck at work and it rained most of the day. Crappy weather today but will try to look at them and the exhaust manifolds. They did replace both cats, I wonder if the connection coming off the manifolds has a leak.
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From: Central IL
A little update. Got all the parts in to replace the VCT solenoids today. Might be able to get to it tomorrow. I'm hoping at least.
Something weird happened yesterday while I was driving. I gunned it to get around traffic and as it got into the higher RPMs (near redline) the engine starting cutting out. It cut out and back on 3-4 times before I could let off the gas. The CEL started flashing, it eventually stopped after about minute or a little less. Hopefully it was short enough that it didn't damage the new cats.
I pulled the Mode 6 data when I got home and saw multiple misfires on cylinder 3. That was the cylinder they were originally having problems with. It has a new COP on it. Looks like I will be pulling the plugs tomorrow as well.
Also the more I listen to the engine the more I'm sure it has an exhaust leak somewhere.
Ugh. This thing is becoming a PITA.
Something weird happened yesterday while I was driving. I gunned it to get around traffic and as it got into the higher RPMs (near redline) the engine starting cutting out. It cut out and back on 3-4 times before I could let off the gas. The CEL started flashing, it eventually stopped after about minute or a little less. Hopefully it was short enough that it didn't damage the new cats.
I pulled the Mode 6 data when I got home and saw multiple misfires on cylinder 3. That was the cylinder they were originally having problems with. It has a new COP on it. Looks like I will be pulling the plugs tomorrow as well.
Also the more I listen to the engine the more I'm sure it has an exhaust leak somewhere.
Ugh. This thing is becoming a PITA.
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shemp1
1997 - 2006 Expedition & Navigator
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Mar 4, 2010 05:21 PM